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#51 2008-06-15 13:48:55

dante4d
Member
From: Czech Republic
Registered: 2007-04-14
Posts: 172

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Nice thread here smile. I want to say that I agree with opinions like "don't try to convince them, just do it and they will be curious" and also "most people are common users, who don't want to learn something new".

Anyways,

Obi-Lan wrote:

I think their biggest argument is that "Linux has thousands of security holes and Windows only few".

that's typical management, isn't it? Or more like someone who believes what M$ claims about their products (or obeys the rules for getting $$$ out of non-IT people)? Like that Windows vs. Linux/UNIX and cost of maintenance claims from "IT pros" smile. I have this opinions since I started working in a big "SAP powered" company.

I think it works like:
1. you have big company, which needs big IT system, which will take care of their data
2. someone says let's have for example SAP, because it's big, good, common, can be used with Windows, will be "user friendly"
3. they implement it; learn users how to use it; they all run Windows on on some brand of computers (lets say Lenovo); all is "standardized" - I call it "vendor lock-in"
4. you have to use it forever if you don't want extreme difficult switch to something else - try to teach 50 years old user to switch to even different color scheme smile
5. management uses previous "lock-in" as a reason, why this and that is good way to do it (basically, you are happy with this, aren't you?)

Conclusion: everyone has to make a living somehow. To me, all this stuff is probably huge overinflated thing, which costs lots of money. They have to keep it flowing. And that's same with all "money oriented" stuff. And that's the reason why I think it's good that we have free software. Because it stays aside of this. Most PC users just want to do their stuff. Commercial SW fits the scheme. It sells good for them. They pay and someone else gives them what they want (well, they also teach them what they should want).

I change my opinions on the fly, so maybe I'm not all that correct... And this was not the topic tongue. Unless someone is desperate with this, why convince him to switch?

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#52 2008-06-15 15:00:14

Berticus
Member
Registered: 2008-06-11
Posts: 731

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

No, Linux/Unix maintenance is indeed more expensive.  The only reason for this is simply because there isn't enough people in the field.  Someone suggested that I try to go for an IT career since I have over 5 years of Unix/Linux experience behind me.  He quoted the starting salary to be $75,000-100,000/year.  By Unix/Linux experience, I don't just mean I can pop in a CD and install Ubuntu or something simple like that, but more, I suppose you would say, back-end experience.  A lot of the people here who help others could probably have a decent career with Unix/Linux IT, same with the Gentoo, or anybody who sets up a Unix/Linux environment from the ground up.  Personally I don't plan on going into the IT field, I'm aiming for electrical engineering.  And then we joked how if I don't make it in ee, I can go to ce (computer engineering); don't make it in ce, go to cs (computer science); don't make it in cs, go to IT; don't make it in IT, go to helpdesk.

And certainly finding alternative software is somewhat of a hassle.  After you find the software, people have to get used to it.

And what's this about Linux having more security holes?  I'm pretty sure Linux was the only one that didn't get cracked at the PWN to Own cracking competition.  Well they used the term hacking, which I suppose is all right in this situation because they are hacking just to find security holes so they can be patched up.  Although, theoretically Linux could've been hacked before Windows because the hack used on Windows was a java issue that was a security issue with any OS running JVM.  I don't know if this was a rumor to try to take away from Linux's winning, but the article said that the hackers there knew about Linux exploits, but just didn't use them.  That didn't make sense to me at all, since it kind of took away from the point of the competition...

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#53 2008-06-15 17:04:18

Asgaroth
Member
From: Hesse, Germany
Registered: 2008-03-26
Posts: 58

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Berticus wrote:

I don't know if this was a rumor to try to take away from Linux's winning, but the article said that the hackers there knew about Linux exploits, but just didn't use them.  That didn't make sense to me at all, since it kind of took away from the point of the competition...

I don't know for sure, but I think I read something about the potential security holes being too much work to exploit, so the participants didn't bother to do it.

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#54 2008-06-15 17:41:16

sniffles
Member
Registered: 2008-01-23
Posts: 275

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Berticus wrote:

Well they used the term hacking, which I suppose is all right in this situation

In what situation would it not be all right?

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#55 2008-06-15 18:01:23

Berticus
Member
Registered: 2008-06-11
Posts: 731

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Well some people like to be really technical, and if I mix up hackers and crackers they get really offended.

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#56 2008-06-15 23:04:45

sparkybean
Member
Registered: 2008-01-14
Posts: 38

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

I think ive got the worst ones:

I tried Linux 1 about a year ago and didn't like it.
Windows is cheaper when you buy in bulk
The name sounds like my deodorant.
It looks horrible (referred to compiz-fusion big_smile)
Its slow
Windows didnt support it on my system
You get what you pay for. (cleverest comment here, still arguable)

I dont bother trying to convert people now, i'll stick with the 'let them suffer' method. Im nice like that

Last edited by sparkybean (2008-06-16 19:40:07)

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#57 2008-06-16 23:04:18

Raccoon1400
Member
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2008-04-14
Posts: 853

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

This happens sometimes

Them "Linux sucks"
Me: did you try it?
Them: "no"
or: "yes"
me: what distro?
them:i don't know

I'll respect their opinion if they have tried it.


Fustrated Windows users have two options.
1. Resort to the throwing of computers out of windows.
2. Resort to the throwing of windows out of computers.

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#58 2008-06-16 23:34:19

iBertus
Member
From: Greenville, NC
Registered: 2004-11-04
Posts: 2,228

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

"Because text-based interfaces went out with DOS 6.22!"

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#59 2008-06-16 23:49:45

moljac024
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

iBertus wrote:

"Because text-based interfaces went out with DOS 6.22!"

You can pry my text-based console from my cold, lifeless hands!


The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if they tell you that I've lost my mind, maybe it's not gone just a little hard to find...

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#60 2008-06-17 00:22:55

Berticus
Member
Registered: 2008-06-11
Posts: 731

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Yeaaaah...  I'm starting to move more towards text-based applications.  My wpm is about 100, and I expect to keep going up!  Definitely much faster than having to move my hands away from my keyboard, go to the mouse, and then navigate wherever I need to navigate to.  I mean when you look at people's tendencies to use keyboard shortcuts, you realize we all really miss just staying at the keyboard wink  Okay, yeah that's an over-exaggeration.  But you cannot deny that keyboard is faster, which is why we have keyboard shortcuts to begin with.

Even in Windows, I'll do like F2, Super+D, Super+M, Super+R, or a bunch of other stuff, and people are quite impressed and always asked me what I do because they see how much faster it is to use the keyboard than to use the mouse.  Or in Firefox, Alt+Left, Alt+Right, Ctrl+T, Ctrl+K, Ctrl+L, Ctrl+Y (Ctrl+J in Windows), and a plethora of other keyboard shortcuts.  Really doing commands is no different than doing that.  May be slightly longer than two or three keys, but more intuitive because what you're typing the name of the program, which you should already know.

Even Microsoft couldn't resist putting in the long time used ctrl+alt+delete!

I will admit though, DOS sucks.  Hated it when I used that flock of birds machine.

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#61 2008-06-17 06:07:26

underpenguin
Member
Registered: 2007-02-01
Posts: 116

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Berticus wrote:

Even in Windows, I'll do like F2, Super+D, Super+M, Super+R, or a bunch of other stuff, and people are quite impressed and always asked me what I do because they see how much faster it is to use the keyboard than to use the mouse.  Or in Firefox, Alt+Left, Alt+Right, Ctrl+T, Ctrl+K, Ctrl+L, Ctrl+Y (Ctrl+J in Windows), and a plethora of other keyboard shortcuts.

1336 < U < 1338

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#62 2008-06-17 23:56:50

dsr
Member
Registered: 2008-05-31
Posts: 187

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

I've never really tried to convince anyone to switch to Linux, but I once suggested to a friend that he should switch from MS Office to OOo (on his Windows XP system) on the grounds that OOo was at least as functional and had the benefit of promoting F/OSS and not using the proprietary .doc format. He declined, saying that he had already paid for MS Office, so he would have to face the fact that he got ripped off by proprietary software.

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#63 2008-06-18 00:39:27

moljac024
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Well, MS Office is still better than OpenOffice, regardless of the file format...


The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if they tell you that I've lost my mind, maybe it's not gone just a little hard to find...

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#64 2008-06-18 00:43:23

kensai
Member
From: Puerto Rico
Registered: 2005-06-03
Posts: 2,475
Website

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

moljac024 wrote:

Well, MS Office is still better than OpenOffice, regardless of the file format...

Opinion, not fact. IMHO Openoffice is way better, I use it for everything even for University.


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#65 2008-06-18 02:03:46

Berticus
Member
Registered: 2008-06-11
Posts: 731

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

underpenguin wrote:

1336 < U < 1338

Thanks?  Why?  Because I know keyboard shortcuts? lol

In terms of word processing, I think Microsoft Office is slightly better.  For most people, OOo2 will do just fine.  But there are a few bugs in OOo2 that was there since the beginning, that needs some fixing.  One particular bug I stumbled across I thought could easily be fixed.  I would provide the bug fix, but that means I have to look through all of OOo2's source, and OOo3 is going to be rolling out soon.  Hopefully the bug is fixed then.  I also heard that OOo3 will be able to interpret VB, so there's no macro incompatibility.

In any event, I've decided to ditch word processors and have opted to use text processors instead, such as TeX, more specifically LaTeX.  I'll be replacing spreadsheets with a database, a couple of scripts to fetch and display data, and Sage to do numerical manipulations.

As for presentations, personally I think people abuse them too much and instead of being an effective tool, it becomes a distraction.  I started realizing this when I was in my World Societies 2 class.  My professor never used presentation software, but stuck with the old fashion over-head projector.  I was able to compare how effective that really was compared to the TA's.  Each TA had to give a lecture, and most used powerpoint presentations.  None of them were as effective in distributing the information.  I wasn't the only person who noticed this, so it wasn't just me.  To further support this hypothesis, some TA's followed my professor's style of teaching, and although they weren't quite as effective, they were definitely more effective than the TA's who used powerpoint presentations.  I concluded that the TA's weren't as effective as the professor because he's had a LOT more experience lecturing.

Then I thought back to public speakers who I thought were really good, and they all kept powerpoints to a minimal.  The absolute best public speaker I knew had the same exact style as my professor.  He was a hairpin better simply because his handwriting was readable.

So now if I have to make a presentation, graphics will be kept to a minimal if possible.  If I need to use graphics, I'll have some pictures and use feh or something to show them.

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#66 2008-06-18 10:28:31

moljac024
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

kensai wrote:
moljac024 wrote:

Well, MS Office is still better than OpenOffice, regardless of the file format...

Opinion, not fact. IMHO Openoffice is way better, I use it for everything even for University.

Don't get me wrong, I use OpenOffice and it works for me. But everyone I've converted from MS Office to OpenOffice (yes, that's right, I converted them successfully) have some kind of trouble with OpenOffice(something not working quite as well as it did in MS Office or not even working at all) but they adjust.


The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if they tell you that I've lost my mind, maybe it's not gone just a little hard to find...

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#67 2008-06-18 12:43:49

catwell
Member
From: Bretagne, France
Registered: 2008-02-20
Posts: 207
Website

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

I don't use it since I don't use Windows anyway, but the latest MS Office does have a great interface (at least for a point-and-click piece of software) which I find much better than that of OOo 2. By the way, I avoid using the "Office suite" kind of bloatware as much as possible; I need it only to read other people's documents and maybe for "quickly prepared" presentations since beamer is not exactly the right tool to make 10 slides in 5 minutes.

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#68 2008-06-19 03:35:03

Raccoon1400
Member
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 2008-04-14
Posts: 853

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

wordperfect is better than openoffice, which is better than MS word.

I used wordperfect until I switched to linux.


Fustrated Windows users have two options.
1. Resort to the throwing of computers out of windows.
2. Resort to the throwing of windows out of computers.

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#69 2008-06-19 05:40:45

JeremyTheWicked
Member
From: Poland
Registered: 2008-05-23
Posts: 193

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

moljac024 wrote:
kensai wrote:
moljac024 wrote:

Well, MS Office is still better than OpenOffice, regardless of the file format...

Opinion, not fact. IMHO Openoffice is way better, I use it for everything even for University.

Don't get me wrong, I use OpenOffice and it works for me. But everyone I've converted from MS Office to OpenOffice (yes, that's right, I converted them successfully) have some kind of trouble with OpenOffice(something not working quite as well as it did in MS Office or not even working at all) but they adjust.

Same situation here. Not to mention the problems with the .doc and .docx formats. In an MS dominated world it
DOES make MS Office better than OOo (especially if you're dealing with a lot of files from different people, like I do).


arch(3) adj amused because you think you understand something better than other people ;P

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#70 2008-06-19 11:25:08

wuischke
Member
From: Suisse Romande
Registered: 2007-01-06
Posts: 630

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

LaTeX?

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#71 2008-06-19 11:58:02

Berticus
Member
Registered: 2008-06-11
Posts: 731

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

wuischke wrote:

LaTeX?

What's that suppose to mean?  Are you asking what it is?  Or are you wondering if anybody else uses it?  If it's the latter, I too use LaTeX!

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#72 2008-06-19 14:08:03

Obi-Lan
Member
From: Finland
Registered: 2007-05-23
Posts: 179

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

Btw IBM is still doing its Lotus Symphony (beta4 now). It is basically OpenOffice on IBM Eclipse platform and fresh looks. Only problem is that its features are on same level with openoffice 1.2. But they are giving it for free.

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#73 2008-06-19 21:50:57

pseudonomous
Member
Registered: 2008-04-23
Posts: 349

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

On a different note, here is the most amusing reason I've heard from a *nix user why he hated using windows (I think he used a Mac):

"all the slashes are backwards"

I would say, actually, that going the other direction Windows -> to Linux, this was the most annoying part.

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#74 2008-06-20 00:22:20

Laplace's Daemon
Member
Registered: 2007-08-14
Posts: 29

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

pseudonomous wrote:

On a different note, here is the most amusing reason I've heard from a *nix user why he hated using windows (I think he used a Mac):

"all the slashes are backwards"

I would say, actually, that going the other direction Windows -> to Linux, this was the most annoying part.

I have to agree with your quoted *nix user: the forward slash key is in a much more convenient position than the backslash key.

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#75 2008-06-20 01:46:16

cautha
Member
From: Kingston, Ontario
Registered: 2008-06-02
Posts: 115
Website

Re: Lame excuses you've heard not to switch to Linux

More often than not, I catch myself using forward slashes whenever I'm forced to use a Windows box big_smile

Harry

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