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#1 2008-07-04 02:25:10

libervisco
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From: Croatia
Registered: 2005-06-17
Posts: 34
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ABS as an universal package manager

I've just had a rather interesting thought. I'm lately entertaining (and discussing) the idea of universal package management, self contained packages etc. As I've recently switched to Arch again, I thought about ABS as a system which actually reduces dependence on a single repository, a single rule-set so to speak and adds a great amount of flexibility. It may very well be the best way of utilizing the one universal packaging format that there currently is: source tarballs.

What if other distros started packaging and maybe even pre-installing ABS, or something similar? Any user of any other distro would only need a tool like yaourt to check up a mirror of all PKGBUILD's available in the whole GNU/Linux universe and initiate an install where the system would just follow the instructions laid down in the PKGBUILD.

Now, considering the flexibility of PKGBUILD's, you don't even need to have them all compile a given program on the user's computer. Instead of fetching a source tarball it could just fetch a binary tarball. The dependencies are still all pretty much the same (and stated and taken care of by the PKGBUILD instructions), the biggest difference is just that instead of compiling the user gets a pre-compiled package and the whole process is done much faster.

Anyway, I wonder what you think and if anyone has discussed this before. I think the PKGBUILD's may very well contain one possible solution to coming up with universal package management system, at least as an add-on to a given distro's base packaging system. And even as an add on, and especially with the ability to install binary and not just source tarballs (much like pacman in fact) may add a great amount of flexibility to a given distro's user that they may currently be missing.

Cheers

Last edited by libervisco (2008-07-04 02:25:39)

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#2 2008-07-04 02:44:31

Stythys
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From: SF Bay Area
Registered: 2008-05-18
Posts: 878
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Re: ABS as an universal package manager

what's the point of having different distros if they all start trying to be the same? Anyways I seriously doubt other distros are just gonna start using ABS if asked. If you want pacman/ABS on a different system, just compile it yourself, but then why not just use arch


[home page] -- [code / configs]

"Once you go Arch, you must remain there for life or else Allan will track you down and break you."
-- Bregol

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#3 2008-07-04 03:38:57

libervisco
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From: Croatia
Registered: 2005-06-17
Posts: 34
Website

Re: ABS as an universal package manager

Stythys wrote:

what's the point of having different distros if they all start trying to be the same?

There's no point at all there because that's not my point. smile The idea of universal package management is merely meant to increase compatibility, to provide a way to easily install the same piece of software using the same process on any distro. Imagine the benefits this could have for newbie users once such an option was further developed and polished. You could tell someone how to install a given program and it would work no matter what distro you run. As it is right now you have specific instructions per distro, not to mention that one distro has some software which another just doesn't.

It is not meant to replace the existing package management in these distros, just add a way to easily install software even without it, when it doesn't have what you need or when it's simply simpler for you to do it this way.


Stythys wrote:

Anyways I seriously doubt other distros are just gonna start using ABS if asked. If you want pacman/ABS on a different system, just compile it yourself

Well, I agree they wont just adopt it. It would all be gradual. Someone starts compiling it for other distros and distributing it through a web site or where possible through community contributed repositories. If people like what they see they start using it more and more until some distros decide to include it by default. Depending on its success the extreme end result would be for it to be a common feature of *every* GNU/Linux system.

But yes, it does start with someone compiling it. smile

Stythys wrote:

but then why not just use arch

Why aren't all GNU/Linux users the users of Arch? tongue

ABS is by far not the only thing which differentiates Arch from others so it's not like putting ABS on other distros would result in them becoming exactly like Arch. That said, people have different preferences. Not everyone wants nor is knowledgeable enough to go through Arch's install process, for example.

Cheers

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#4 2008-07-04 03:43:52

Stythys
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From: SF Bay Area
Registered: 2008-05-18
Posts: 878
Website

Re: ABS as an universal package manager

fair enough. I see your point smile

If this is gonna gain any sort of ground tho it'll take some work. The first step I guess, as you said, is to setup a website with a custom repo providing ABS to various other distros. I'd say a wiki format would probably be best. I can provide a server if needed. Maybe we should aim for the top 20 distros or something on distrowatch as a start? Anyone know how to package .deb and .rpms? A majority of the popular distros will be using those tongue

Last edited by Stythys (2008-07-04 03:57:54)


[home page] -- [code / configs]

"Once you go Arch, you must remain there for life or else Allan will track you down and break you."
-- Bregol

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#5 2008-07-04 12:12:28

libervisco
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From: Croatia
Registered: 2005-06-17
Posts: 34
Website

Re: ABS as an universal package manager

Sounds good.

Though I have to say I was proposing this mostly as an idea for the moment, but immediate action couldn't hurt of course as a side project. smile In all honesty I am not well versed in ABS yet nor have I built many packages. What I did I mostly used checkinstall for it. tongue

But Arch's simplicity and the seeming brilliance of ABS kinda motivates me to go into that a little more.

So anyway, I can host the wiki as well. I've got a domain already which is for freedomware projects at nuxified.com. It could be something like abs4all.nuxified.com or whatever name we think off.

Btw, how does ABS check for whether a dependency is installed? Just scans the binary paths?

Cheers

Last edited by libervisco (2008-07-04 12:13:07)

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#6 2008-07-04 12:35:58

Stythys
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From: SF Bay Area
Registered: 2008-05-18
Posts: 878
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Re: ABS as an universal package manager

I believe ABS checks the /var/lib/pacman/local folder


[home page] -- [code / configs]

"Once you go Arch, you must remain there for life or else Allan will track you down and break you."
-- Bregol

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#7 2008-07-04 13:16:23

Cerebral
Forum Fellow
From: Waterloo, ON, CA
Registered: 2005-04-08
Posts: 3,108
Website

Re: ABS as an universal package manager

abs (the script) doesn't do any building.  Makeworld (the script, part of the ABS package) calls makepkg (the script) which uses pacman (the package manager) to determine what's installed.

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#8 2008-07-16 23:54:02

libervisco
Member
From: Croatia
Registered: 2005-06-17
Posts: 34
Website

Re: ABS as an universal package manager

I didn't forget about this, but am busy with other projects. I'll keep this bookmarked and in mind. Perhaps I do something about it as a side project.

Thanks for all the infos. smile

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#9 2008-07-29 06:38:58

miesnerd
Member
From: Texan by birth, TN by paycheck
Registered: 2008-02-17
Posts: 94

Re: ABS as an universal package manager

I like your idea.
As a 2 year debian user switched over to arch (2 desktop computers-- laptop still runs ubuntu) I'd love to be able to mix up things a bit.
I love arch because I love cutting edge software, but sometimes I like the easy install of programs that are a "double click" on debian systems, that are more than a hassle on arch.
Each distro definately has their own advantages, but I'd be all for an optional package management program whcih makes my arch install able to, for example, if needed, install a .deb based program.

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#10 2008-07-29 08:36:08

shining
Pacman Developer
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 2,043

Re: ABS as an universal package manager

libervisco wrote:
Stythys wrote:

what's the point of having different distros if they all start trying to be the same?

There's no point at all there because that's not my point. smile The idea of universal package management is merely meant to increase compatibility, to provide a way to easily install the same piece of software using the same process on any distro. Imagine the benefits this could have for newbie users once such an option was further developed and polished. You could tell someone how to install a given program and it would work no matter what distro you run. As it is right now you have specific instructions per distro, not to mention that one distro has some software which another just doesn't.

It is not meant to replace the existing package management in these distros, just add a way to easily install software even without it, when it doesn't have what you need or when it's simply simpler for you to do it this way.

Uh?
And how exactly are you going to interact with existing package management?


pacman roulette : pacman -S $(pacman -Slq | LANG=C sort -R | head -n $((RANDOM % 10)))

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