You are not logged in.

#1 2008-10-15 15:55:17

ArchArael
Member
From: Switzerland
Registered: 2005-06-14
Posts: 485

Some questions about the stumpwm experience

Hi guys,

I would like to ask some questions to stumpwm users. I know that I should try stumpwm instead of asking you and I will.

Right now I'm just curious about the stumpwm and about the choice of yours.

My questions are:

Why you chose this window manager?

Do you use often the real time extendibility?
(I try to automate everything I can, I like to delegate as many tasks as I can to the machine. That's why I like and use bash for everything and I keep learning. The idea of extending my working environment is fascinating and sounds powerful and flexible.)

How you use this feature?
(Some use cases if there are will be appreciated smile )

If someone used awesome or any other tiling window manager which features made you chose stumpwm over others?

Do you miss something in stumpwm?
(I mean compared to other window managers you used in past)

In general about your experience what you like/hate most in stumpwm?

My english is not good and I tried to be as clear as possible but if you don't understand some of my questions let me know and I will try to explain better.

Thank you wink

Last edited by ArchArael (2008-10-15 20:56:16)

Offline

#2 2008-10-15 20:29:41

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

ArchArael wrote:

Hi guys,

I would like to ask some questions to stumpwm users. I know that I should try stumpwm instead of asking you and I will.

Right now I'm just curious about the stumpwm and about the choice of yours.

My questions are:

Why you chose this window manager?

Full-screen WMs are nice, and it's fully programmable in Common Lisp.

ArchArael wrote:

Do you use often the real time extendibility?
(I try to automate everything I can, I like to delegate as many tasks as I can to the machine. That's why I like and use bash for everything and I keep learning. The idea of extending my working environment is fascinating and sounds powerful and flexible.)

Sure, when I have config changes to make.

ArchArael wrote:

How you use this feature?
(Some use cases if there are will be appreciated smile )

I have used it for adding new key commands, changing the escape key, playing with the mode line, and finding info I need for scripting.

ArchArael wrote:

If someone used awesome or any other tiling window manager which features made you chose stumpwm over others?

I chose it over Ratpoison because it's pretty much the same except now with Lisp inside, as well as a few default config improvements.

I chose it over wmii because as good as Acme's columnar layout scheme is, wmii mixes it up with a bunch of keyboard commands, and most programs are not happy in small windows.

I chose it over dwm because it's configurable on the fly, and rather than painfully hacking C code, you get to hack Lisp. I also don't have much use for dwm's "main window/other windows" layout, or for floating windows.

ArchArael wrote:

Do you miss something in stumpwm?
(I mean compared to other window managers you used in past)

Nope. Programs that spawn a lot of windows are annoying, but StumpWM can't be blamed for bad design.

ArchArael wrote:

In general about your experience what you like/hate most in stumpwm?

I don't much like that I've got to choose between a big SBCL image or a small CLISP image without multithreading. Without threads, I can't run a Swank server in my StumpWM image, and therefore can't connect with SLIME for super-easy hacking on the fly. All I can do is paste stuff into its eval prompt or type things into files and load them. I don't like that the Gimp, OpenOffice.org, Weka, and some other programs crash it. I don't have a clue why this happens, but it means I have to restart X with a different WM to use those programs. Luckily I don't need them often, but even so, it's annoying. Hopefully either this will be fixed soon or I will figure out what the problem is.

I do like full screen window management. I do like that I can set up my key bindings so that a given key will either start Emacs (for example) or focus Emacs, depending on whether it is already running. I have this set up for 8 programs. I do like that when I want to make changes, it's as easy as possible, thanks to Common Lisp. I do like how it stays out of my way completely.

Offline

#3 2008-10-15 20:53:18

ArchArael
Member
From: Switzerland
Registered: 2005-06-14
Posts: 485

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

Really detailed. Thank you very much.

Probably for some advanced use of this window manager a good lisp knowledge is required. At least for configuring it properly.

Offline

#4 2008-10-15 22:27:57

peets
Member
From: Montreal
Registered: 2007-01-11
Posts: 936
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

dwm, wmii, xmonad and awesome let you pick layout algorithms from a limited list. StumpWM doesn't impose a layout on you, it lets you place the windows however you want (through splitting frames, like in screen or vim).

It's got excellent means of switching focus from one window to another: cycling through the list of all windows, cycling through the list of windows in the current frame, jumping to the previous window, switching to the window up|right|down|left of the current one, displaying a number in each frame and letting you enter a number, displaying a menu of window titles and letting you pick one, and probably more which I've never used. Oh, I think clicking on a window can be used too smile (but not by default on all apps)

I don't know lisp at all and I've been able to decently configure StumpWM: I've set up the keyboard the way I want, chose the window border styles and colours and picked fonts. The interactive hackability has been useful for setting up the config: I would try the command, and if it worked (I would know right away whether it did,) I put it in my ~/.stumpwmrc.

The thing that I appreciate the most with StumpWM is that it does not get in my way. I know exactly where windows will be placed and I can put stuff wherever I want. I never have to fight with it to get it to behave properly: it has the power to do what I tell it to, and it does it. Kind of like Arch I guess smile

One feature I'd like to see added is support for automatic splitting/layout: some applications launch many windows on start, and in StumpWM these will all be stacked one behind the other. It would be nice to have a mode where new windows cause a new frame to appear. Hmm, while writing this I realized this does not seem hard at all to implement; I think I will put it in my ~/.stumpwmrc!

protip: stumpwm-clisp from the AUR is easier to install.

pauldonnelly: I had troubles with Gimp, Pidgin and other Gtk apps when using clisp. Switching to sbcl "fixed" them.

Offline

#5 2008-10-15 22:48:45

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

I'm talking from a ratpoison user's perspective here, but everything applies. As someone else mentioned, ratpoison and stumpwm are 90% the same. It's the innards that are different.

Why you chose this window manager?
My WM journey began when I first discovered WMI (the precursor to WMII). I loved what it did for me. But then WMII came out and got more and more obtuse. I've tried dwm and awesome and all those other new-fangled WMs, but none of them make as much sense to me as ratpoison does.

Do you use often the real time extendibility?
Ratpoison has similar features too. The config syntax, while not Lisp, is fairly useful, and can be run on the fly (C-t smile. And I only use it when experimenting. When I find something that works, I stick it in my ~/.ratpoisonrc. (note: that is fairly outdated).

How you use this feature?
Again, while I don't do fancy-schmancy things, I use it to experiment with new keybindings, and for changing fonts and borders and the like. Sometimes I do complex things, like dumping the current framelayout to a file, to be restored later (FRAMES="$(ratpoison -c fdump)"; ... ; ratpoison -c "frestore $FRAMES")

Do you miss something in stumpwm?
I miss the ability to "force" floating layouts on some windows. Ratpoison has the concept of "unmanaged" windows that it doesn't touch, but I would like to be able to move them via the mouse if at all possible.

I also get easily annoyed at crappy apps that maximize improperly. Xine's error window is one, and a few firefox dialogs. Mostly I have moved away from broken apps because if this.

One thing I find annoying is how the frame concept doesn't include nested frames (this may not be true of stumpwm). That is, I cannot have one fullscreen frame containing firefox, and another fullscreen frame containing two frames for gajim - the roster window on the side, and the conversation pane on the other. If stump could do this, it may be reason enough for me to switch.

Offline

#6 2008-10-15 22:50:25

Jerry
Member
From: Philippines
Registered: 2007-09-14
Posts: 126

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

Why you chose this window manager?

1. Minimalist display. (if you don't bring up the input bar or any other bar you got nothing but content)
2. Keyboard driven with emacs-like keybinding.
3. Goes well with emacs and conkeror.
4. Shows window in fullscreen by default.

Do you use often the real time extendibility?

Often? not really.

How you use this feature?

Stumpwm and it's ilk are something that you refine and refine and refine... it's absolutely convenient when you change a lot of stuff in the config file.

If someone used awesome or any other tiling window manager which features made you chose stumpwm over others?

1. They don't have Common Lisp.
2. They don't have Emacs-like keybinding.
3. DWM kept changing and trashing my config every version upgrade.
4. Xmonad is actually cool,  but I want an emacs-like prefix key and I'm already learning common lisp at my free time.

Do you miss something in stumpwm?

1. Stability - The git version have been crashing a lot this days (Some part of Virtualbox where VB spawns a window. Launching some apps messes it up too)
2. Floating for programs like pidgin and gimp (I don't like floating though, it's just that some software needs it to useable).  There are work around like specifying the window size in the config or using xnest but these are ugly, at least for me.

In general about your experience what you like/hate most in stumpwm?

I've been using it on and off since april (switching to xmonad or dwm at times) I guess the best thing about it is it doesn't get in my way and the prefix key overrides any other key.  In xmonad, virtualbox clobbers the alt key by giving it to the guest os and the left crtl has to pressed... I guess it's just a little nuance but for someone who runs multi-os (openbsd, xp, opensolaris, arch) it kinda annoying in a big way.

I always wanted to run just one commonlisp implementation (SBCL for hunchentoot, cl-who, mcclim, etc...) but since stumpwm is supposed to be better in clisp, I had to use that one too.

Offline

#7 2008-10-15 22:52:24

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

pauldonnelly wrote:

I don't like that the Gimp, OpenOffice.org, Weka, and some other programs crash it. I don't have a clue why this happens, but it means I have to restart X with a different WM to use those programs. Luckily I don't need them often, but even so, it's annoying. Hopefully either this will be fixed soon or I will figure out what the problem is.

Hmm, ratpoison has the a "tmpwm" command that will swap out a new WM, until you exit it, and then restore ratpoison. Can stumpwm do this? Might be worth a shot for you. I'd do something like:

#!/bin/sh
ratpoison -c "tmpwm twm"
soffice
killall twm

Offline

#8 2008-10-16 02:28:45

Jerry
Member
From: Philippines
Registered: 2007-09-14
Posts: 126

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

it's an old thread but this looks something like tmpwm in stumpwm

http://www.mail-archive.com/stumpwm-dev … 00196.html

Offline

#9 2008-10-16 03:18:23

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

peets wrote:

pauldonnelly: I had troubles with Gimp, Pidgin and other Gtk apps when using clisp. Switching to sbcl "fixed" them.

Ooh, 56MB WM, here I come. I'll push into my swap partition a little if it means fixing that bug.

Offline

#10 2008-10-16 10:33:50

strankan
Member
From: Sundsvall - Sweden
Registered: 2006-11-08
Posts: 97

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

pauldonnelly wrote:
peets wrote:

pauldonnelly: I had troubles with Gimp, Pidgin and other Gtk apps when using clisp. Switching to sbcl "fixed" them.

Ooh, 56MB WM, here I come. I'll push into my swap partition a little if it means fixing that bug.

I have the exact problem while using clisp, guess I have to try the sbcl to.

Offline

#11 2008-10-16 12:18:41

Theomachos
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-07-31
Posts: 67
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

protip: stumpwm-clisp from the AUR is easier to install.

Okay, it's not the Arch way - but the Clbuild-Method from the Stumpwm-Wiki (Section: Set Up) worked flawlessly for me. And you don't have to worry about CLX, swank or anything.

One feature I'd like to see added is support for automatic splitting/layout: some applications launch many windows on start, and in StumpWM these will all be stacked one behind the other. It would be nice to have a mode where new windows cause a new frame to appear. Hmm, while writing this I realized this does not seem hard at all to implement; I think I will put it in my ~/.stumpwmrc!

Like this ? -> http://stumpwm.antidesktop.net/wiki/Handling_the_Gimp (not exactly the same, but it works)

Last edited by Theomachos (2008-10-16 12:19:46)


There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be.
Charles S. Peirce

Offline

#12 2008-10-16 19:17:12

ArchArael
Member
From: Switzerland
Registered: 2005-06-14
Posts: 485

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

Thank you all for the answers. I tried stumpwm and it's really different than the other tiling window managers. I tried also wmii, awesome, dwm and xmonad in past.

Maybe because I'm a vim user and I like short keyboard combinations that I find a little bit complex to press Ctrl-t p or Ctrl-t tab to change to the next window and to change monitor in dual monitor setup. But this is probably just a matter of configuration.

In openbox I just have to press alt-tab for switching windows in one virtual desktop and ctrl-space (that's defined in my rc.xml) to have a list of all windows in all virtual desktops. So jumping from a window to a window in all virtual desktops results very easy. In stumpwm it's possible to use numbered windows and that's fine and similar to my ctrl-space configuration.

It's interesting. The idea of tiling window managers it's fascinating but I didn't find yet a proper dual monitors support in anyone of them. I always miss something or am uncomfortable with tiling window managers when I use dual monitor setup. I like to delegate to the machine as much work as I can and I like the idea of windows managed automatically and efficiently.

I probably should stick to some tiling window manager for a while to get used to their philosophy but right now I always find it harder to use than openbox. With two monitors at least.

Was thinking that this is just an habit and I would like to break it. 

The first time a seen Males video (http://www.archive.org/details/TheStumpWMExperience) about stumpwm features I thought that this window manager might be some kind of graphical shell.

But in the end using it I understood that my idea was just silly. It's a very very flexible emacs users friendly window manager.

The mouse support in stumpwm is almost bare but that's not my problem because am used to the keyboard and almost everything is done with keyboard.

It's a strange window manager. Didn't understood well ant/bee AI and XIOMACS stuff. What's all about?

By the way, am I wrong or stumpwm/emacs=awesome/vim? big_smile

Last edited by ArchArael (2008-10-16 19:47:51)

Offline

#13 2008-10-16 23:24:26

pauldonnelly
Member
Registered: 2006-06-19
Posts: 776

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

ArchArael wrote:

Thank you all for the answers. I tried stumpwm and it's really different than the other tiling window managers. I tried also wmii, awesome, dwm and xmonad in past.

Maybe because I'm a vim user and I like short keyboard combinations that I find a little bit complex to press Ctrl-t p or Ctrl-t tab to change to the next window and to change monitor in dual monitor setup. But this is probably just a matter of configuration.

IMO, C-t is not the best choice for an escape key. I always switch it to something a little easier to hit. You can also introduce whatever top-level bindings you like. For a while, with Ratpoison, I was using the F-keys (without pressing the escape sequence first) to select windows 1-12. Now I'm using H-<number>, where number is a number key, with H-space for my escape. It's easy, because I can do [Hyper down][Space][1][Hyper up] to select numbered windows. And I use H-space p <letter> to select things like Firefox, Emacs, my mixer, and others.

ArchArael wrote:

In openbox I just have to press alt-tab for switching windows in one virtual desktop and ctrl-space (that's defined in my rc.xml) to have a list of all windows in all virtual desktops. So jumping from a window to a window in all virtual desktops results very easy. In stumpwm it's possible to use numbered windows and that's fine and similar to my ctrl-space configuration.

It's interesting. The idea of tiling window managers it's fascinating but I didn't find yet a proper dual monitors support in anyone of them. I always miss something or am uncomfortable with tiling window managers when I use dual monitor setup. I like to delegate to the machine as much work as I can and I like the idea of windows managed automatically and efficiently.

I probably should stick to some tiling window manager for a while to get used to their philosophy but right now I always find it harder to use than openbox. With two monitors at least.

Was thinking that this is just an habit and I would like to break it.

I think of StumpWM as more of a full screen WM than a tiling WM. I only split the screen occasionally; mostly I just go right to the program I want.

ArchArael wrote:

It's a strange window manager. Didn't understood well ant/bee AI and XIOMACS stuff. What's all about?

I don't know about the ant/bee stuff (some kind of awful in-joke?), but XIOMACS is here. An Emacs/StumpWM-based desktop. Cool idea, though I question the wisdom of a status bar.

Offline

#14 2008-10-16 23:32:27

peets
Member
From: Montreal
Registered: 2007-01-11
Posts: 936
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

I'm a vim user; I've set up many commands to require no prefix key (just Meta+<key>). I've also set my prefix key to Meta-: !
If you use apps that create a lot of popups, StumpWM will probably be unpractical.

Offline

#15 2008-10-18 07:38:08

Basu
Member
From: Cornell University
Registered: 2006-12-15
Posts: 292
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

I'm a new stumpwm user too. i'm wondering where I should put all my customizations? Can I just make a .stumpwmrc file and stump will automatically read it at start up?


The Bytebaker -- Computer science is not a science and it's not about computers
Check out my open source software at Github

Offline

#16 2008-10-18 13:00:44

Theomachos
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-07-31
Posts: 67
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

Basu wrote:

I'm a new stumpwm user too. i'm wondering where I should put all my customizations? Can I just make a .stumpwmrc file and stump will automatically read it at start up?

Yup ! wink

Not only at startup. There is a "loadrc"-command ...


There is one thing even more vital to science than intelligent methods; and that is, the sincere desire to find out the truth, whatever it may be.
Charles S. Peirce

Offline

#17 2008-10-25 03:12:25

peets
Member
From: Montreal
Registered: 2007-01-11
Posts: 936
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

Uhmm... running StumpWM on sbcl does not necessarily mean no crashes. They are just not the same crashes as with clisp, as I've just found out. So what, I guess I'll avoid using pidgin for now? I'd rather that than to have to use a more stable WM smile

Offline

#18 2012-07-03 02:28:15

lspci
Member
From: Virginia, USA
Registered: 2012-06-09
Posts: 242

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

ArchArael wrote:

Why you chose this window manager?

Because it's written in common lisp; that means that I could even configure stumpwm to make my computer's screen flash random colors, every 12 seconds, play 80s music in the background, while printing random text to the screen--not that I actually know how to do any of that, but I hope that it illustrates my point.  If I wanted stumpwm to say "Good morning, Lspci" every time I started it, then I would; that's the beauty of a common lisp window manager.

ArchArael wrote:

Do you use often the real time extendibility?

No, I just use a re-initialization command that I placed in my ~/.stumpwmrc file to re-initialize stumpwm every time I change it's config file. 

(defcommand reinit () ()
            (run-shell-command "sh bin/stump-restart.sh"))

Here's the referenced shell script. 

 killall -s KILL tint2 & # tint2 acts weird when it is started before stumpwm, so this line kills tint2 so that it can be restarted by another shell script that runs every time 'xinit' is run.  
# tint2 still acts weird, even when it is started 10 seconds after stumpwm.  
 killall -s KILL stumpwm && xinit stumpwm
ArchArael wrote:

If someone used awesome or any other tiling window manager which features made you chose stumpwm over others?

Awesome
- Felt limited in its placement of windows and its extensibility; plus, I didn't really enjoy programming in Lua.  I mean, Lua is a great scripting language, and I really love using '--' as a comment marker.  However, Lua just isn't as fun to use as Clisp.  Clisp is way easier, and it's far more powerful, imo.  Plus, I don't really know that much Lua, since I've only used it when I was actually editing a config file that was written in Lua.


I3 & Dwm & Wmii
- Kind of cool looking at first, but after using it for any great length of time I just got tired of the 'closed/boxed in' feeling that seemed to haunt it. 


Notion
- Much better than both I3 and Awesome, but the stupid F1-F12 mappings were a nightmare; not to mention a pain in the butt.  Other than that, Notion was extremely cool and really groovy because it also supports custom, I mean, manual tiling--like you actually define how you want your windows to be tiled, and if they are tiled or simply floated; in that regard it is very similar to stumpwm, except that Notion is far easier to use.  (But the F1-F12 mappings kill.)


Spectrwm

- Seemed to have same problem as i3.  It just gave off a 'boxed in' kind of feeling.


Xmonad

- Seemed to follow in suit along with other tiling window managers that I've tried.  I always ended up feeling like I was being 'boxed in' by the window manager.

  Stumpwm doesn't have any of those problems.  It's super powerful and extensible, it doesn't make me feel like I'm being 'boxed in', its keybinds are easily changed, and it's just like Common Lisp: if something isn't included or supported; I can add it, or add support for it. 

ArchArael wrote:

Do you miss something in stumpwm?
(I mean compared to other window managers you used in past)

Yes, I would love a taskbar that looks just like the one in Windowlab, and behaves roughly like it.  Except that I'd want the taskbar to also support a system tray, and virtual desktops.


Please don't be a help vampire. | Bitbucket

Give a little more for a little less today.  smile

Offline

#19 2012-07-03 03:12:05

doug piston
Member
From: Seattle
Registered: 2011-09-11
Posts: 387
Website

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

lspci, great post but please

ReadMe

Offline

#20 2012-07-03 05:13:35

bernarcher
Forum Fellow
From: Germany
Registered: 2009-02-17
Posts: 2,271

Re: Some questions about the stumpwm experience

doug piston is right. This is a really old thread. Next time better open a new thread of your own and link back.

Closing in order to keep this one read only.


To know or not to know ...
... the questions remain forever.

Online

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB