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#26 2004-09-23 02:32:15

Dusty
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

kakabaratruskia wrote:
Dusty wrote:

The best things in life are free.

You're right, I offer my sexual services for free...

Is that legal?   :?

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#27 2004-09-23 02:58:51

kakabaratruskia
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From: Santiago, Chile
Registered: 2003-08-24
Posts: 596

Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I have a license...


And where were all the sportsmen who always pulled you though?
They're all resting down in Cornwall
writing up their memoirs for a paper-back edition
of the Boy Scout Manual.

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#28 2004-09-23 04:44:35

aCoder
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From: Medina, OH
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Standards that should not be applied to SkyOS because you have never used it (at least not 5.0).

I'm allowed to pass jugdement early, since I can't actually use it.  That's one of the biggest risks a closed-source project faces.  Do you want to hear what I think of Longhorn?  I have quite a few nasty things to say about it, although I haven't used it, and few would complain if I let them have it.

That doesn't even make sense. Please don't make unqualified statements without supporting evidence. Which part of SkyOS do you believe does not make an effort at "standards compliance"?

Well, where on the site do you see it noted that SkyOS 'strives for POSIX compliance', (or compliance with anything at all!)?

SkyOS supports a lot of hardware, and a lot of apps. As much as Windows? Of course not. But we make inroads everyday, and the beta testers get to be a part of it. On top of that, they will receive a copy of SkyOS 5.0 Final when it is complete.

<sarcasm>Oh joy! Just what I've always wanted!  A whole package of stuff relating to an OS that I'm not sure that I'll like better than the great free one called Linux that I'm running right now, and it's only $30!!!</sarcasm>

Well sorry, but not everything in life is free. We have bills to pay too.

Now, what if everything in life was free...  (SkyOS certainly doesn't help there, does it?)

Unfortunatly, cheese, cheesecake, fried cheese, and cheese on a stick are all very not free, but they're more important than my OS, or anything else really...


If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience.
  - John Cage

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#29 2004-09-23 05:11:29

Dusty
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

BTW, did you ever find the pacman package for making Swiss Cheese?

Dusty

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#30 2004-09-24 00:31:51

aCoder
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From: Medina, OH
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Yes, but it also makes your judgment worthless.

What else is new? wink

Feel free to search the following thread for all the reference to "POSIX":
http://www.skyos.org/board/viewtopic.ph … ight=posix

It's also mentioned numerous times in other threads that SkyOS strives to be as close to POSIX-compliant as possible.

You know, I'd love to register and login to these forums to read whatever you're directing me to, since I am quite open, whether or not SkyOS is, but really, being greeted by a login before I can even read a topic was a real downer, and reminded me a little of certain other policies.

Really, my bad attitude toward SkyOS is just a result of how excited I used to be about it.  However, I E-Mail that guy way back in the day when he first started asking about people interested in the beta team, but never got a reply, nothing at all.  If something really starts looking great, I may look at it again, but, yeah, I still won't pay $30 just to try it out.


If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience.
  - John Cage

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#31 2004-09-24 03:39:18

cactus
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From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

heh...just checked out the skyos site...
conflicting information. One site says closed source, no gpl used in the code, another says that the web browser is using the KHTML rendering engine...

LOL

"SkyOS comes with two WebBrowsers, SkyKruzer - a KHTML port and Links."
http://www.skyos.org/aboutnew.php

"6. Does SkyOS use GPL'd code?
No. SkyOS uses no GPL'd code in the kernel/system."
http://www.skyos.org/faqs.php

Did they release the source for those ported apps? As well as the source for the other ported apps that are GPL?
I didn't see any downloads on the site for the source code. And since you have to pay to get the dev software (and significantly more than cost of cd duplication and shipping).....
well...


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#32 2004-09-24 03:52:04

aCoder
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From: Medina, OH
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Posts: 359
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I suppose I've just completely passed over this, having not used anything else for so long, but did anyone else notice Linux, *BSD, and MacOSX are the only OSs with 'real' wireless networking support?

Windows at least has companies throwing together fancy drivers and config apps to fake it, and XP SP2 adds some meaningful support, but doesn't seem to work right yet, from what I've heard.  I'm wondering where this is in SkyOS.  This is another one of those, 'Hey, Coder can't use this if x feature doesn't work', situations, where my wireless card doesn't work.  When my wireless card doesn't work, nothing works.  Then I bang my head against my keyboard, poor keyboard...


If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience.
  - John Cage

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#33 2004-09-24 18:12:22

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I'd like to point out that this discussion is essentially off topic.  The original topic was how desktop linux should behave, the forum topic is Linux Discussion. I understand that SkyOS is not Linux (or it would be a GPL'd kernel...)

Further, trying to argue the merits of closed source operating systems will probably be accepted a lot more easily at microsoft.com than here. wink

Dusty

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#34 2004-09-24 18:26:28

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
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Posts: 1,249
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I don't like that the skyos team(Robert,Kelly with friends) are bashing Linux every time they get a chance.
To me it looks like "skyos" is 99.9999% OSS code.
They should be very thankful instead and give something back.

And it's very hard to see how a closed kernel are going to be trusted for a bunch of various reasons.(security,code stealing, compatibilty, long term development, etc)

ps: Sorry for this post Dusty, it's my first and last one about skyos in this thread.


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#35 2004-09-24 19:27:46

Dusty
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I am locking this thread before the personal attacks get any more personal.  I suggest that very few Arch Linux users have tried SkyOS, and thus have absolutely no justification for attacking nor recommending it.  I also suggest that at least a small majority of Arch Linux users are supporters of the open source movement, and will not be trying any proprietary systems, no matter how good they may be.

In other words, this is NOT the place to be attacking SkyOS, as the attackers have no experience with it, and can attack only one thing: the proprietary licence. This discussion is pointless, and there are much better places to obtain information on it, including opensource.org, or catb.org. This is NOT the place to be promoting or marketing SkyOS, as the potential customer base is practically nonexistent.

Arch Linux users have been made aware of the SkyOS operating system and concept. If they would like further information or promotional material, they are free to visit www.skyos.org. If they have any questions for the SkyOS team or would like to discuss SkyOS issues, they should take the discussion to http://www.skyos.org/board/ where registration is free, and the topic is acceptable.

Dusty

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#36 2004-09-25 02:48:36

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Dusty wrote:

I'd like to point out that this discussion is essentially off topic.  The original topic was how desktop linux should behave...

Thanks Dusty pointing this out. The SkyOS was brought up for us to study it's desktop behavior, not as an operating system. Are we satisfied how current desktops (KDE and Gnome) and window managers (Fluxbox and IceWM) behave and how they are operated? Do the developers in general manage and upgrade them well? Will the 3D rotating screens be the solution? Instead of KDE would we like to have a Mac style of desktop? Or SUN's Looking Glass? Is Desktop Linux moving in right direction?

In my opinion, something is missing same as many of us were searching for a distro before staying with Arch Linux. Is there any user using only one desktop or WM  wink ... how often do we change?

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#37 2004-09-25 05:09:36

Dusty
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

You reopened the topic. I'm deleting any future SkyOS posts.

Back on topic, I've already posted my position.  Mouse based window switching is a pain, overlapping windows are a pain. The hotkeyed tiled window managers are best, in varying degrees.

I switch desktops on a regular basis, but I'm coming closer to satisfaction after discovering ion and then wmi. These are *efficient* interfaces, NOT *minimalist*.

The problem with these sorts of desktops is that although they are efficient (not 100%, but better than anything else, and I suspect the wmi developers are going to continue pushing the limit...), they are neither "interesting", nor "learnable", nor "familiar".

This is where interfaces like looking glass and potentially avalon are a step in the right direction. I believe there is a much better potential 3D interface waiting to be designed. I've researched this issue for over a year, and have written two prototypes (neither available as open source, through no fault of my own).  I will be researching a more extensible interface starting this week for a final university project.

I'm hoping "they" won't be able to stop me from releasing this project as open source from the outset (you never know in the academic world...). If things go my way, I'll be publicly posting the design and code of my 3D project for peer review within two months.

Hopefully such a project will benefit from much advice given by the many people that are dissatisfied with current window managers.   I'll keep you posted, since a lot of these people seem to be Arch users.

In the meantime, I strongly recommend wmi, not because I'm a diehard fan with zealot tendencies (that only applies to ArchLinux, ok? with window managers, I change as need arises. wink), but because it is an innovative design that address many of the issues that other wms are not even aware of.  Plus it seems to have an active development community and cheerful developers who love accepting suggestions... a perfect meeting place for Arch users, eh?  :shock:

Dusty

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#38 2004-09-25 18:16:46

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

jwymanm wrote:

Correction to the above: GNU/Linux is considered free software, not just open source.

A FSF/Stallman follower, eh? Please note that the words people choose to use do not mean anything; it is the meaning they wish to convey that counts.  Though Stallman argues that open source is not the same as free software, the commonly accepted definition of open source seems to be equivalent to the definition of free software.  Arguing over language is a much bigger waste of time, even, than arguing over which distibution to use or which text editor.

All open source/free software/new word that means the same thing/ developers believe in freedom and liberty... depending of course, how you define those words.

There is also ion3 coming out.

I'm looking forward to ion3.  at the current state, I believe that wmi 9 is better than ion 2.  I won't argue the issue, as it is only a marginally more intelligent argument than arguing over language.

It's got an integrated turing complete scripting language (lua) even.

I'm curious to know how important this is. Have you ever written any major scripts in lua to configure ion?  I personally never used it, thus I consider this 'feature' to be bloat.

I too am developing a new user interface.. though mine has not been started on development-wise.

I don't think any desktop ui concept will stand the test of time (or should). It's just a set of weak metaphors that have no relation to real content other than possibly displaying a pretty wallpaper. Yes it is the standard for people coming from MacOS or Windows.. that does not make it a good thing to adhere to.

*applause!!*

Combining all software together into one user interface without modes, as Jef Raskin argues, is _the_ future of software.

I haven't read the article yet (thanks for the link), but please do recall that people saying that xyz is _the_ future of software usualy get burned.

Having said that, I agree with you. I think interfaces need to be object oriented. It works for programming languages, it should work for interfaces. The desktop system is semi-object-oriented in that you manipulate objects (icons) and perform actions on them. However, the actions you perform open separate programs that generally have trouble interacting with each other. MS has tried many difficult ways to make programs communicate and cooperate, and Unix has tried the simple ways (pipes and filters, yeeeeeah baby!)  However programs don't need to communicate of objects are used. If only the object oriented operating systems had worked out...

This requires not a new window manager but an entirely different software development and distribution paradigm. I'm working on all of this too and find it really exciting.

You may be interested in my work then.Essentiall it is a 3D game-like world (I hate games, ok? but the user interfaces are pretty easy to use, or the kind of people attracted to gaming wouldn't be able to use them. wink) where you interact with objects. These objects can perform any functions a developer chooses.  I'm having trouble with the extensibility issues right now, as I would also like to allow the user to fully theme the 3D world and any application objects they use.

GNU/Linux (and *NIX in general) can only go so far..

This is for another discussion, but why is that? There is no limit on what people can do to the Linux Kernel, including rewrite it from scratch to adapt to an object oriented paradigm (for example).

Leave UI design to those who want to make GNU/Linux behave better and more consistent, not just ArchLinux.

You misunderstand. Just because I am an Arch Linux developer doesn't meant I would write only for Arch Linux. I write in Java and Python because both languages are thoroughly portable.  anything I write will be available on any platform that supports these languages.

Rasat, also, is more interested in open development than Arch. I would say he's chose Arch because its such an open distribution, not the other way around.

Let the original software makers and distributors work together.

I am a software developer before I am a distribution developer.  I will be quite angry if you ever suggest otherwise again.

Dusty

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#39 2004-09-25 18:53:12

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I havn't tried any 3D desktops yet but I think it's just eyecandy that will force you to buy a new computer just to be able to run it at a descent speed.
It looks bloody cool on screenshots but it's hard to see the real use for it.
Maybe in 5 years time when average computer got 25 inch monitors and 5 gb ram, it will be useful.


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#40 2004-09-25 20:00:55

aCoder
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From: Medina, OH
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Posts: 359
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I'm deleting any future SkyOS posts.

Well, thanks for putting an end to that, and my apologies for actively contributing, but I just have a 'knack' for doing that sort of thing in exactly the wrong situation...

Now that we're back on UIs, I'm assuming it's OK now.

First of all, I want to go ahead and say that tiling WMs make me cringe.  It's not that I'm a big supporter of having my applications floating all over the screen and sitting on top of one another, I just don't have enough screen real-estate or good enough eyesight to have more than one or two apps entirely exposed at once.  It just doesn't work for me.  My personal preference is something like XFCE, opening as many apps as I have desktops, and a click on the mousewheel is all it takes to move between them, no 'point, click, screw something up, fix it, point, click, *sigh because you finally got it right*', and certainly no staring into space trying to remember all the keybindings.  That's very important to me with a UI.  I don't think UIs can afford to get anymore complicated than they already are.  An interface should be just that, not a barrier.


If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience.
  - John Cage

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#41 2004-09-25 20:35:37

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

aCoder wrote:

First of all, I want to go ahead and say that tiling WMs make me cringe.

This goes to support the as yet unstated opinion that every user likes different things. Even if there was one "most efficient" interface, it might not be the most popular. (especially in most office situations where efficiency is considered bad policy wink).

Thus, if there was an ultimate desktop, it would have to support many different interaction styles and be highly customizable. Such a window manager would be accused of being hugely bloated.  This is one reason having so many different options in Linux is an extremely useful idea; we can download and use what we like. Further, those of us who know how can extend the source as we like.

The best desktop manager I ever used was litestep for Windows. Modular, extensible, themeable... I never found anything like it for Linux. I think E17 may be something like that.

My personal preference is something like XFCE, opening as many apps as I have desktops, and a click on the mousewheel is all it takes to move between them,

Great, assuming your hand is on the mouse. wink  I suspect (not certain) you cound configure both WMI and ION to do this. They both support maximized windows on workspaces (automatically maximized, at that), and I know ION, at least, supports binding an event (such as workspace switching) to a mouse event.

Not that it matters, if you're satisfied with what you have. smile

and certainly no staring into space trying to remember all the keybindings.

Ah yes... I forgot about some people not having the memory I have... oh well. Even if I design an interface that works only for me, then I've done my job properly.

That's very important to me with a UI.  I don't think UIs can afford to get anymore complicated than they already are.  An interface should be just that, not a barrier.

ION, WMI, fluxbox... these interfaces are much less complicated than XFCE, from what I understand of XFCE (which is to say, I'm talking out of my ass like xerces2 was on the 3D interfaces; I haven't tried XFCE.)

"The interface should not be a barrier"... lovely quote.  Should be printed on a huge poster and hung up in every office that designs interfaces... yes. I think I read it in an HCI textbook once too...

Dusty

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#42 2004-09-25 21:14:24

aCoder
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From: Medina, OH
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Posts: 359
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Great, assuming your hand is on the mouse. wink

hmmm...  But what if your hand wasn't on anything?  Interfaces know what to do because you interact with a keyboard, touchscreen, mouse, etc., so, is it possible that the biggest problem is actually the way we physically interact with the software interface?  That said, I think the ideal situation is an interface that does what you will it to do while you just sit and stare.  Wouldn't that be fun!


If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience.
  - John Cage

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#43 2004-09-26 02:16:29

Dusty
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

aCoder wrote:

That said, I think the ideal situation is an interface that does what you will it to do while you just sit and stare.  Wouldn't that be fun!

Most interface discussions arrive at this rather useless observation...

I don't think it would work, due to the average lack of thinking people do while staring at the screen (or during any activity, for that matter).

Dusty

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#44 2004-09-26 02:40:24

aCoder
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From: Medina, OH
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Posts: 359
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

I don't think it would work, due to the average lack of thinking people do while staring at the screen (or during any activity, for that matter).

I could see that being a major problem in the development of such a device as well, but it might sell just for the 'geek factor', and the fact that it's mostly, but not quite entirely, useless is a big plus for hardware vendors anyway.


If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience.
  - John Cage

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#45 2004-09-26 11:53:38

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Posts: 2,176
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Dusty wrote:

Thus, if there was an ultimate desktop, it would have to support many different interaction styles and be highly customizable. Such a window manager would be accused of being hugely bloated.

Try to look from a different angle based on Arch Linux success among many users why they stopped changing distros. Also try to remember before joining Arch, did you/we ever think about having an "ultimate" distro, what was your/our vision? Most likely a combination of different distros making it "bloated". Today you/we have a non-bloated distro. Moreover it allows you/ us to built it the way we want.

I am quite sure when an "apeiro" type of desktop developer appears going to the root of X system and makes it as a simple desktop base, and users can make their own modules & parts for different purposes, then there will be an "ultimate" desktop for those users who likes Arch.

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#46 2004-09-26 12:06:28

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

rasat wrote:

then there will be an "ultimate" desktop....

and that desktop will be like ion  big_smile

I can think of a few 3D programs that can be useful.
Think of a filemanager that are like in space or under water.
You can be driving a submarine and if you want to delete a file, just fire off a torpedo.
That will be something, no?


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#47 2004-09-26 13:53:24

Mr Green
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From: U.K.
Registered: 2003-12-21
Posts: 5,750

Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Xcruiser  8)


Mr Green

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#48 2004-09-26 17:02:56

Dusty
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From: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

rasat wrote:

Try to look from a different angle based on Arch Linux success among many users why they stopped changing distros.

Not everybody uses Arch. Many people are satisfied with Debian, Gentoo, Fedora, and any one of the others. They aren't changing either.

Just because *we* think Arch is the ultimate distro doesn't mean that it is the ultimate distro for everybody. wink  The same will happen with any window manager; I think WMI is destined to be the ultimate desktop, but obviously, many people here disagree. wink

and users can make their own modules & parts for different purposes, then there will be an "ultimate" desktop for those users who likes Arch.

modularity is the key, yes.

Dusty

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#49 2004-09-26 17:52:39

xerxes2
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From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Mr Green wrote:

Xcruiser  8)

that looks pretty good green, is there an underwater version? big_smile
I think Dusty is up for some competition here....


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#50 2004-09-26 17:55:18

rasat
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From: Finland, working in Romania
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Posts: 2,176
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Re: How Desktop Linux Should Behave

Dusty wrote:

Not everybody uses Arch. Many people are satisfied with Debian, Gentoo, Fedora, and any one of the others. They aren't changing either.

Just because *we* think Arch is the ultimate distro doesn't mean that it is the ultimate distro for everybody. wink

Hmmm you didn't get the point. What I tried to introduce was a concept - a  model based on Archers' experience and Arch philosophy. Nothing to do what other distro users think and like. With this model, developing a desktop in a similar style as Arch was built, I see a good possibility of success. The basic idea here is to "build your own desktop" and therby making an "ultimate" desktop for you alone.

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