Choice of WM

gajo · 2008-12-22 09:15:48

Hello, while I'm sure there are similar threads to this one, I'm trying to focus on what are probably rare atributes to be considered - stability.
And by stability, I do not only mean how stable is a WM regarding errors, rather, I'm interested in .config stability of WMs.
Currently, I'm using awesome, and it fits my needs, I can configure pretty much any widget in the way I want, and relatively fast, color it in the way I want, and it has the tiled layouts that are quite useful.

However, and now comes my main concern about it, the design is horrid, it constantly keeps changing, as if the author never heard about modularity of software. First it was the change to lua - a completaly unnecessary change in my eyes, and an utter destruction of your previous config files, and it just keeps going on! Such software changes are considered to be big flaws, you just shouldn't make the most common UI unusable (even making it depracted is a no-no). Seems like the open source community is full of similar ideas (python comes to mind - a widely used _scripting_ language that changes basic functions like IO, something you'd get lynched for in C).

Now to make this more than just a rant, I'm curious as to what other options I have. Does anyone have any expirience using other WMs, which are similar to awesome(excluding dwm, it's default config is just useless), preferably something tiled, if not, those similar to Openbox could be considered ok - as long as it has the great configurability(f.e, being able to add mouse gestures to widgets, such as mouse scroll changing volume, click muting, etc) of awesome. Also, I'm not as much interested in bloated UIs either (Gnome/KDE), it's too Windows-like, I prefer cmd line to sort most of my problems.

Oh and, if you add a suggestion, mind stating how long you lasted without having to change UI due to removal/change of config commands.

Thanks in advance.

Dieter@be · 2008-12-22 10:45:08

gajo wrote:

and it just keeps going on!

You think that after the change to lua much more will change? (I'm using awesome since yesterday )

Last edited by Dieter@be (2008-12-22 11:48:40)

ArchArael · 2008-12-22 13:24:21

Well, it's quite obvious that you should try them yourself and decide which better suits you.

We have a lot of these threads. Nobody can convince you that some window manager or another is best for you. But I can tell you about the choice of mine.

I'm stuck on openbox.
IMHO is the the best WM I tried so far. XML file is not that complex to edit. Maybe is simple for me because I'm a web developer.
I like it because of its great flexibility and although I tried most WM this is the best I found.

I'm so comfortable in openbox that basically everything I do I can do it with keyboard shortcuts. I don't use any panel.

Try it...that's my hint.

Last edited by ArchArael (2008-12-22 15:55:37)

mhd · 2008-12-22 13:31:17

Why would changing from some homebrewn config concoction to a well-known, embeddable scripting language like Lua be against modularity? Not that I'm a big fan of the expansiveness of the 'awesome' project (tastes too much like E17 to me).

Most tiled window managers are both minimalistic (i.e. no huge, configurable status bar widgets) and experimental (i.e. no huge stability of features and their configuration). Especially for the control widgets, awesome is hard to beat, so if that particular amount of bloat is really necessary, I'd suggest getting to like Lua or sticking to the old version (maybe creating yet another fork).

Other than that, I've found wmii to be a very nice, feature-medium window manager, and they've got separation of concerns right, with a basic interface to the window manager functionality that's accessible by whatever language you want to implement your event management and configuration. The current, unreleased version (available as wmii-hg from AUR) is rather stable.

skottish · 2008-12-22 16:31:09

ArchArael wrote:

Well, it's quite obvious that you should try them yourself and decide which better suits you.
We have a lot of these threads. Nobody can convince you that some window manager or another is best for you. But I can tell you about the choice of mine.
--snip--

Yes, there are many, many recent threads about this.

seenxu · 2008-12-22 17:05:59

I am still using awesome 2.3.4, good old unchanged awesome.
just forget awesome 3.*

Pnevma · 2008-12-22 18:05:02

gajo wrote:

However, and now comes my main concern about it, the design is horrid, it constantly keeps changing...

That's exactly why I stopped using Awesome.

Anyways, I'd suggest PekWM. I was constantly switching between Openbox and Awesome, until I tried PekWM. While it's not a titling WM, it's extremely customizable and lightweight; even more-so than Openbox. It even has titling-like features (key-bindings to make applications use max width/height, etc).

While the configuration syntax is not set in stone, it rarely changes. And if it does, it's usually to add options.

If this sounds interesting to you, take a look at the documentation for the latest version, it should give you a general idea of the features.

peets · 2008-12-22 18:36:55

I think not many people try stumpwm because it used to be complicated to install. joyfulgirl has done awesome work improving the PKGBUILDS; just install clisp-new-clx, then clpcre, and finally stumpwm-git.

Anyway, I've been using this WM for a few months now, loved it from the start and plan to keep on loving it forever. Configuration is done on-the-fly using documented commands or functions. There's a ~/.stumpwmrc which is a lisp file that is read and evaluated when stumpwm starts up. I don't understand Common Lisp at all, but I had no trouble configuring the wm to my liking. The main idea of stumpwm is to be written/configurable in lisp, so that will never change. New functions/commands are added, but the old/basic ones are always kept (one can't get rid of commands like 'move-focus left' on a whim).

Here's my ~/.stumpwmrc:

(in-package :stumpwm)

;key bindings
;prefix key
(set-prefix-key (kbd "s-;"))
(define-key *root-map* (kbd ";") "colon")

(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-n") "next-in-frame")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-N") "prev-in-frame")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-p") "prev-in-frame")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-P") "next-in-frame")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-space") "other")

(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-h") "move-focus left")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-j") "move-focus down")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-k") "move-focus up")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-l") "move-focus right")

(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-H") "move-window left")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-J") "move-window down")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-K") "move-window up")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-L") "move-window right")

(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-s") "vsplit")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-S") "hsplit")

(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-g") "windowlist")

(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-1") "gselect 1")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-2") "gselect 2")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-3") "gselect 3")

(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-!") "gmove 1")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-@") "gmove 2")
(define-key *top-map* (kbd "s-#") "gmove 3")

; Undefine useless keybindings. xterm? emacs? psh.
(undefine-key *root-map* (kbd "c"))
(undefine-key *root-map* (kbd "C-c"))
(undefine-key *root-map* (kbd "e"))
(undefine-key *root-map* (kbd "C-e"))

;fonts
(set-font "-xos4-terminus-medium-r-*-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-iso8859-1")
;StumpWM doesn't work well with variable-width characters (non-monospace fonts)
;(set-font "-*-urw gothic l-semibold-r-*-*-17-*-*-*-*-*-iso8859-*") 
;Also, there is no support for xft (that might be clx's responsibility?)

;borders
(setf *window-border-style* :tight)
(set-focus-color "darkolivegreen3")
(set-unfocus-color "gray20")
(setf *maxsize-border-width* 1)
(setf *transient-border-width* 3)
(setf *normal-border-width* 1)

I've suggested stumpwm many times before, but I always like rambling about it.

elmer_42 · 2008-12-22 21:05:01

If you're looking for something that tiles, both dwm and wmii were easy to configure and, as far as I know, there haven't been any major configuration changes planned.

Last edited by elmer_42 (2008-12-22 21:05:14)

luggi · 2008-12-22 21:29:30

I'd recommend awesome. Its fast and very feature-rich and configurable.
Its quite easy to configure if you start off with the standard configuration file. The only problem is the frequent change in the configuration file syntax...

edit: I'm sorry, I really didn't read the original post very attentively. I think I was too tired when I posted this
So, my excuses!

Last edited by luggi (2008-12-23 12:10:08)

patroclo7 · 2008-12-22 21:48:40

Get rid of statusbars, panels, menus and systrays: use your full screen for only one task (all the other tasks will be easy to reach and to compare). In one word: ratpoison!
Complement it with little addons which are displayed only for few seconds and only when you are really interested to them: dzen bars for battery, temperature and volume, dmenu to launch apps... and ratmenu to switch even more easily between the tasks; all of them reachable with a single key combination.
Enjoy the pleasure of a simple text configuration file with well documented commands and options.

Last edited by patroclo7 (2008-12-22 21:49:55)

Ghost1227 · 2008-12-22 21:53:13

luggi wrote:

I'd recommend awesome. Its fast and very feature-rich and configurable.
Its quite easy to configure if you start off with the standard configuration file. The only problem is the frequent change in the configuration file syntax...

I whole-heartedly agree, over the years I've gone through AfterStep, fvwm, fluxbox, OpenBox, GNOME, xfce, XMonad, and finally Awesome (and I probably missed something in there)... and Awesome is the first place I really felt at home. Although the config changes can be annoying at first, you will definitely learn from it!

pointone · 2008-12-22 21:55:08

luggi wrote:

I'd recommend awesome. Its fast and very feature-rich and configurable.
Its quite easy to configure if you start off with the standard configuration file. The only problem is the frequent change in the configuration file syntax...

I don't know whether this is a joke, or whether luggi simply doesn't read original posts before replying...

Dieter@be · 2008-12-22 22:34:01

Ghost1227 wrote:

Although the config changes can be annoying at first, you will definitely learn from it!

You'll learn what you shouldn't do if you have your own open source project and want to keep your users happy ;-)

djseomun · 2008-12-23 02:57:28

patroclo7 wrote:

Get rid of statusbars, panels, menus and systrays: use your full screen for only one task (all the other tasks will be easy to reach and to compare). In one word: ratpoison!
Complement it with little addons which are displayed only for few seconds and only when you are really interested to them: dzen bars for battery, temperature and volume, dmenu to launch apps... and ratmenu to switch even more easily between the tasks; all of them reachable with a single key combination.
Enjoy the pleasure of a simple text configuration file with well documented commands and options.

I second ratpoison. The week before finals was not a good time to try to learn Lua; consequently, I completely failed with Awesome3. ratpoison, on the other hand, is incredibly easy to use. Want to tile your windows? C-t s. Untile? C-t Q.

Apparently, stumpwm is the successor to ratpoison. However, I was not able to get it to work on Arch 64 despite attempting both options presented in the wiki.

hotsauce · 2008-12-23 06:06:05

luggi wrote:

I'd recommend awesome. Its fast and very feature-rich and configurable.
Its quite easy to configure if you start off with the standard configuration file. The only problem is the frequent change in the configuration file syntax...

Do you even read the posts before replying?

Edit: And clearly, I don't read till the end of the thread. Someone had made the same point...

Last edited by hotsauce (2008-12-23 06:06:48)

patroclo7 · 2008-12-23 06:46:32

djseomun wrote:

Apparently, stumpwm is the successor to ratpoison. However, I was not able to get it to work on Arch 64 despite attempting both options presented in the wiki.

Although the development of stumpwm is more active, ratpoison is not dead: bugs are fixed and patches accepted. The git version includes for example: xft support for the notification bar; a much improved tmpwm command (there were problems when coming back to ratpoison from the temporary window manager).

luggi · 2008-12-23 12:56:07

Now that I have read the original post (I feel ashamed...), I think that openbox is a good choice.
Did you include it in your options? "similar to Openbox" seems to include Openbox ;-)
Well, either way, openbox doesn't seem to change it's config and I used it for several months without changing the config once.
I'm not sure if there is a mouse gestures feature in openbox, but it's the most configurable wm I know, so it should be possible in some way :-)

dolby · 2008-12-23 13:48:58

Im with patroclo7. Dzen is nice for displaying battery etc. Dmenu on the other hand i dont use anymore. I just bind keys to launch apps in .ratpoisonrc eg. bind f exec firefox.
Plus ratpoison has the simplest config file, overall configuration in general and better documentation than all WM's in existence. Finally its been around long enough,you can actually depend on it.

Awesome was only worth using when it was a dwm clone with patches removed from upstream dwm.

Last edited by dolby (2008-12-23 13:53:24)

RobbeR49 · 2008-12-24 12:24:14

FVWM has been around for a while and the config file is still the same. It has the "great configurability" you are looking for, and while it's not really intended as a tiling WM I'm sure with the right config you could emulate some kind of tiling behaviour with it. I wouldn't be suprised if someone has already done it, actually.

andre.ramaciotti · 2008-12-24 13:14:38

One of the reasons I stopped using awesome was that a config file that worked, next time I updated, wouldn't work anymore. The other reason was that it had a memory leak at the time, so it was using more that 100MB of RAM alone.

I'm using xmonad now with dzen and I miss nothing.

Whatintheworldisthat · 2008-12-24 19:08:13

I went through the wm selection process today after a long stretch of not using linux. I decided to simply get all the tiling wm's I could find and quickly decided that wmii was the best for me. xmonad I would say would be my second choice.

seenxu · 2008-12-24 21:54:32

andre.ramaciotti wrote:

I'm using xmonad now with dzen and I miss nothing.

from the ram usage aspect, how much do xmonad and dzen normally used?

for awesome 2.3.4(64bit), fresh start it's about 7mb, after several days of uptime and usage, maximal 15mb ram. also very handy if you just push ctrl+super+r to make it refresh ram back to 7mb.

andre.ramaciotti · 2008-12-24 22:04:58

xmonad by itself usually uses 5~5.5MB (on a 32bit). It pipes the workspaces to a dzen that uses around 1MB.

I still use stalonetray which uses around 2MB and another dzen that with its script uses 3MB. So summing up, I use around 11MB.

Another reason that made me use xmonad was that it's written in Haskell, a language that I'm learning.

edit: this X session is up for 9 hours. It may start a little higher that awesome, but it keeps the usage constant.

Last edited by andre.ramaciotti (2008-12-24 22:06:36)

seenxu · 2008-12-25 00:19:35

andre.ramaciotti wrote:

xmonad by itself usually uses 5~5.5MB (on a 32bit). It pipes the workspaces to a dzen that uses around 1MB.
I still use stalonetray which uses around 2MB and another dzen that with its script uses 3MB. So summing up, I use around 11MB.
Another reason that made me use xmonad was that it's written in Haskell, a language that I'm learning.
edit: this X session is up for 9 hours. It may start a little higher that awesome, but it keeps the usage constant.

well, the xmonad/dzen is also pretty lightweight, maybe someday I will try em out, too.

Arch Linux

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Choice of WM

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