[Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

davvil · 2009-02-03 11:33:53

I have a Lenovo T500, and I'm not sure if I am having the spin down issue (see http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lap … n_problem). I set the APM to disabled, but I still hear the disk spinning down and up every now and then. At least I think it's the disk, could it be something else? The computer even freezes for 1 or 2 seconds when this happens (even when simply typing in the command line or editing files with vim), and then continues (e.g. it "spits out" what I was typing) when all goes back to normal.

hdparm confirms that APM is disabled for sda. Noise reduction settings do not seem to have influence. In windows it does not seem to have the issue, so I don't think it's a hardware problem (however I hardly use windows except for occasional gaming, so not much experience there). The filesystem I use is JFS for / and /home, and ext2 for /boot, if that's relevant.

Last edited by davvil (2009-02-11 09:27:29)

thunderogg · 2009-02-03 13:03:20

First, install "smartmontools"
Then run this as root:

smartctl -a /dev/sda | grep Load_Cycle_Count

The "always" value of Load_Cycle_Count is what you should look for.
Google for "Load_Cycle_Count" and you will find a lot to read about that problem.

Edit: I don't think it's right to call this a spin down problem, because the drive doesn't have to spin down to make a head unload/head load cycle. My drive doesn't at least. I just hear a click. If your drive is spinning down, it might be for other reasons. Maybe you installed laptop-mode?

Last edited by thunderogg (2009-02-03 13:33:13)

davvil · 2009-02-03 14:36:55

Yes, I know about the Load_Cycle_Count. However all the pages I have seen that talk about the problem recommend disabling the apm for the hard disk per hdparm. And this is what doesn't seem to work for me.

I have laptop tools installed, configured to set the power management of sda to 255 when on AC power. hdparm -I reports this value, so this works. I will try to disable laptop-tools altogether to see if something else is interfering (don't have the laptop with me right now, so I cannot report the results).

About the terminology: I just took the name given in the wiki.

thunderogg · 2009-02-03 14:54:09

davvil wrote:

I have laptop tools installed, configured to set the power management of sda to 255 when on AC power. hdparm -I reports this value, so this works. I will try to disable laptop-tools altogether to see if something else is interfering (don't have the laptop with me right now, so I cannot report the results

You might have configured laptop-mode to spin-down the harddisk. You can go through the config file and change that, or as you suggested just disable laptop-mode. I don't use laptop-mode.

davvil wrote:

About the terminology: I just took the name given in the wiki.

Yeah, I know. I really doesn't matter.

litemotiv · 2009-02-03 15:06:48

not sure if this is the case here, but some drives require an apm of 254 instead of 255 to avoid spin-down completely.

davvil · 2009-02-03 15:41:03

litemotiv wrote:

not sure if this is the case here, but some drives require an apm of 254 instead of 255 to avoid spin-down completely.

The same thing happens with both. The only difference I see is in the output of hdparm -I. With 255 it says APM disabled.

thunderogg · 2009-02-03 17:08:36

This is what I use:

hdparm -B254 -S240 /dev/sda

It sets both the unload/load (-B254) and the spin-down (-S240) to a minimum.

Last edited by thunderogg (2009-02-03 17:08:54)

davvil · 2009-02-04 09:49:14

The -S parameter seems to be the key! I didn't know about it and the description in the man page seems to fit my problem quite well. I just tried it and on a quick test, the issue seems to be gone. I must go to work now, so I can not do extensive testing, but if I do not update this thread with more questions, then the issue is solved

And yes, laptop-mode was interfering. Now that I know what I was looking for it was easy to find. By default it sets the spindown time to 20 seconds, and I think that was what I was experiencing. I have to dwell a bit more into all the configuration options (right now I get somewhat confused between the distinction between "AC" and "AC when laptop-mode is active"). I will investigate further.

If I confirm that this issue is solved, I will also update the wiki entry with a pointer to the -S parameter of hdparm.

chrispoole · 2009-02-04 12:08:03

I have this issue with an EEE PC 1000H.

The hdparm solution works fine, but personally I have more luck with changing the timing values in laptop-mode.

In /etc/conf.d/laptop-mode.conf I think (not in my arch machine right now); Change the timeout settings from somewhere like 20s to 300s and 1800s (for battery and AC power respectively), 5mins and 30mins (I believe this is what Windows uses as standard).

I also need to restart laptop-mode daemon after suspending.

TheBaron · 2009-02-07 12:49:12

thunderogg wrote:

This is what I use:
hdparm -B254 -S240 /dev/sda
It sets both the unload/load (-B254) and the spin-down (-S240) to a minimum.

That works for me, thanks.

I'm using a HP Mini 700, and using just -B255, as per the wiki, the load cycle value in smartctl was increasing at a rate of 14 for every 5 mins. Now it's much less (none at all over 15 mins), but I've yet to test it's impact on the battery.

thunderogg · 2009-02-07 13:28:17

TheBaron wrote:

thunderogg wrote:
This is what I use:
hdparm -B254 -S240 /dev/sda
It sets both the unload/load (-B254) and the spin-down (-S240) to a minimum.
That works for me, thanks.
I'm using a HP Mini 700, and using just -B255, as per the wiki, the load cycle value in smartctl was increasing at a rate of 14 for every 5 mins. Now it's much less (none at all over 15 mins), but I've yet to test it's impact on the battery.

Well, if you want better battery consumption, I'd recommend laptop-mode. There you can configure one setting for AC (saving the harddisk drive) and one for battery (saving the power). "hdparm -B254 -S240 /dev/sda" is really not a powersaver! I use it because I only use my notebook at home, so my battery life is not important.

TheBaron · 2009-02-07 19:58:53

thunderogg wrote:

Well, if you want better battery consumption, I'd recommend laptop-mode. There you can configure one setting for AC (saving the harddisk drive) and one for battery (saving the power). "hdparm -B254 -S240 /dev/sda" is really not a powersaver! I use it because I only use my notebook at home, so my battery life is not important.

Thanks again. I've dug into laptop-mode a bit more, enabled it, and tweaked the following line to have a value of 240, rather than 20.

LM_AC_HD_IDLE_TIMEOUT_SECONDS=240

This seems to have stopped the load_cycle value increasing so often while I'm on AC power.

Though I'm concerned that something isn't working right with my machine. For the load_cycle value reported by smartctl to increase by 14 over a 5 minute period, it must be spinning up almost immediately after spinning down and probably isn't saving me any power anyway. I'll need to investigate this.

davvil · 2009-02-11 09:28:10

I just updated the wiki entry with a reference to the -S parameter and marked this topic as solved.

gradgrind · 2009-02-14 14:27:45

Anyone else noticed something like this? I tested with hdparm -B 254 and hdparm -B 200. Both stopped the load cycle count incrementing, but with 200 the reported temperature was several degrees lower (after leaving it running for a while for the temperature to settle). I haven't experimented with the -S parameter.

thunderogg · 2009-02-14 17:37:49

hmm, interesting. Will try it later.

thunderogg · 2009-02-14 19:23:07

Yeah, you are right. My harddisk is normally around 51-52 degrees Celsius. Now after running two hours, it's 48!! WHY? What is it doing? I'll keep an eye on the load count.

thunderogg · 2009-02-14 19:43:47

And now it's 47 degrees!!! No change on load cycle count.

Last edited by thunderogg (2009-02-14 19:44:43)

davvil · 2009-02-15 13:10:53

Hmm, not for me The load cycle count increases.

stefanwilkens · 2009-02-15 21:06:34

these spindowns are done with several advantages in mind:

* lower power consumption (more downtime etc)
* less heat production (more downtime etc)
* lower the chance of drive damage if it's moved during operation

completely disabeling the feature will cause more heat production, it's as simple as that.

However, there is a certain maximum of times a drive can go through a spindown cycle before the wear and tear these spindowns cause result in drive failure. Typical drives can go through about 600.000 before they are considered "aged". Refer to your hard drive manufacturer for this information.

Hard drive manufacturers sometimes set the power management feature (causing the spindowns) to rather aggressive levels. Because general linux distros respect these settings, drives may go through their 600.000 cycles at an alarming speed (months, rather than the to be expected years).

Last edited by stefanwilkens (2009-02-15 21:11:08)

moljac024 · 2009-02-15 21:18:50

That's why I disable the stupid power management. Keeping my data is more important to me than squeezing out an extra 10-20 minutes of battery life. What's the point in a hard drive if it fails due to it's power saving "features" ...

thunderogg · 2009-02-15 22:09:43

moljac024 wrote:

That's why I disable the stupid power management. Keeping my data is more important to me than squeezing out an extra 10-20 minutes of battery life. What's the point in a hard drive if it fails due to it's power saving "features" ...

Agree, but you have to keep an eye on the temperature not to overheat the drive. Hm, maybe that is a bigger problem for me where I live.

stefanwilkens · 2009-02-21 15:51:10

moljac024 wrote:

That's why I disable the stupid power management. Keeping my data is more important to me than squeezing out an extra 10-20 minutes of battery life. What's the point in a hard drive if it fails due to it's power saving "features" ...

that's an OK strategy if:
1. you monitor temperatures
2. you don't move the system! spindowns reduce the chance at drive damage caused by movement.

davvil · 2009-02-21 19:12:17

that's an OK strategy if:
2. you don't move the system! spindowns reduce the chance at drive damage caused by movement.

That's something I am not really convinced of. My feeling is that the spindown lasts only a second or two, so I do not see a big advantage for this. Perhaps I am missing something.

thunderogg · 2009-02-21 20:16:43

davvil wrote:

that's an OK strategy if:
2. you don't move the system! spindowns reduce the chance at drive damage caused by movement.
That's something I am not really convinced of. My feeling is that the spindown lasts only a second or two, so I do not see a big advantage for this. Perhaps I am missing something.

I think you are right. As far as I know, it's not a spindown at all, just a retraction of the heads.

Last edited by thunderogg (2009-02-21 20:17:03)

stefanwilkens · 2009-02-21 21:02:44

Source: http://lwn.net/Articles/257426/

Laptop manufacturers want to reduce the power consumption of their devices; one way to do that is to spin down the hard disk when it hasn't been accessed for a time. Some hard disks then move the heads away from the platters, called "parking the heads", in order to prevent damage to the drive under a sudden deceleration; hitting the floor for example. Depending on the drive, head parking or spinning down will increment a count, the load/unload cycle (or just load cycle) count, which can then be queried using the smartctl command:

the fact that it's only lasting a second or two is in error, it shouldn't go down and up so quickly! The heads are parked and almost immediately unparked, then reparked shortly after and soforth. This is the issue known as the LOAD_CYCLE problem which we're discussing here.

*edit*

and you're correct, there's a definitive difference between a soft cycle and a hard spin cycle.

confusing terminnology, lol.

Last edited by stefanwilkens (2009-02-21 21:03:48)

Arch Linux

#1 2009-02-03 11:33:53

[Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#2 2009-02-03 13:03:20

Re: [Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#3 2009-02-03 14:36:55

Re: [Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#4 2009-02-03 14:54:09

Re: [Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#5 2009-02-03 15:06:48

Re: [Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#6 2009-02-03 15:41:03

Re: [Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#7 2009-02-03 17:08:36

Re: [Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#8 2009-02-04 09:49:14

Re: [Solved] Am I experiencing the HD spin down problem?

#9 2009-02-04 12:08:03

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#10 2009-02-07 12:49:12

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#11 2009-02-07 13:28:17

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#12 2009-02-07 19:58:53

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#13 2009-02-11 09:28:10

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#14 2009-02-14 14:27:45

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#15 2009-02-14 17:37:49

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#16 2009-02-14 19:23:07

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#17 2009-02-14 19:43:47

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#18 2009-02-15 13:10:53

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#19 2009-02-15 21:06:34

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#20 2009-02-15 21:18:50

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#21 2009-02-15 22:09:43

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#22 2009-02-21 15:51:10

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#23 2009-02-21 19:12:17

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#24 2009-02-21 20:16:43

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#25 2009-02-21 21:02:44

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