Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

lseubert · 2009-06-03 00:58:05

Good day,

I need some quick advice from the Arch community. I am putting together a Wikipage that will list all the projects found within the Arch community, providing a description of each project, where it may be found, how to participate, and contact information. Additional details may be found here: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Tal … y_Projects

So far, I have nominally organized the Arch community into three broad areas: Official, Community, and Independent. An Official Arch Linux project would be something like the core software repository, or the bugtracker. A Community project would be the AUR - strongly affiliated with Arch, maybe even on the website, but not quite official. An independent project would be KDEmod, Arch schwag, or one of the Arch-based distros - strictly third party and separate.

Below is the list I have worked out so far with all the various projects categorized as Official, Community, or Independent. Please look over this list, as you consider the following questions, and post any thoughts you have on the matter:

1. Are the three categories sufficient and clear? Should I add to, drop, or rename any of them?
2. What project(s) should I add to this list, and in what category?
3. What project(s) should I remove from this list?
4. How should I categorize the projects on the Un-Categorized list at the very end?

Many thanks for your assistance,
Luke Seubert

Official Arch Linux Projects
==================================
Arch Developers Team
Arch Install Media
core software repository
extra software repository
testing software repository
Official Installation Guide
Arch Linux Website
Bug Tracker
Mailing Lists
Latest News - on the website
Newsletters
git repository of official Arch software
SVN repository of PKGBUILD files
Donations
Arch Fellows
Arch Linux Logos and Artwork

Community Arch Linux Projects
==================================
Trusted Users
community software repository
AUR
Wiki
Forums
IRC Channels
Planet Arch
International Websites
Translations

Independent Arch Linux Projects
==================================
Arch User Magazine
Arch Schwag
More Schwag
Arch-Based Distros
KDEmod
Xyne's Archlinux Stuff
Artwork Galleries
Arch Quote Database
AUR Helpers - http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/AUR_Helpers
Arch-based Distros - http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch-based_Distros
Pacman GUI Frontends - http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Pac … _Frontends
Arch Mirrorcheck
ArchSheriff
Arch Gaming Repository
Pacman on OS X
Namcap Reports
ArchPPC

Un-Categorized Arch Linux Projects
==================================
Arch-i18n - seems to be Community, but a lot of this material winds up in Official
hwd

Peasantoid · 2009-06-03 01:04:40

Do these projects need to be related to Arch in any way? I have a few I'm working on at the moment.

lseubert · 2009-06-03 02:05:42

peasantoid wrote:
Do these projects need to be related to Arch in any way? I have a few I'm working on at the moment.

Yes, these projects must be arch related. The Wikipage will be all about the Arch community, and the various projects it creates and supports.

Allan · 2009-06-03 03:53:07

Note that Arch Schwag & More Schwag should definitely be in the official Arch stuff list. I would consider the forums, wiki, AUR, IRC all official Arch stuff too, even if they are mainly contributed to by the community. The mailing lists can be posted to by anyone (apart from the dev list) so are in much the same category.

Xyne · 2009-06-03 05:16:43

Just as a quick note, it should be "Xyne's Arch Linux Stuff"... I still need to tell dusty to fix that on the project page.

Last edited by Xyne (2009-06-03 05:34:06)

tlaloc · 2009-06-03 07:23:12

You should get rid of this self-contradictory un-categorized category. Arch-i18n seems to be dead since 2005 and doesn't have be to mentioned at all (i18n-work on specific tools like pacman and AUR continues). I'm not so sure about hwd - but isn't this somehow deprecated by now? At least, it doesn't deserve a category on it's own.

lseubert · 2009-06-03 09:59:33

Allan wrote:

Note that Arch Schwag & More Schwag should definitely be in the official Arch stuff list. I would consider the forums, wiki, AUR, IRC all official Arch stuff too, even if they are mainly contributed to by the community. The mailing lists can be posted to by anyone (apart from the dev list) so are in much the same category.

First the schwag. I am puzzled by this one. First off, there are two separate schwag stores. If the schwag is Official, why not just one schwag store? And while I realize that the schwag stores are run by Arch developers and proceeds are returned to Arch, they are on separate websites - separate from the official Arch Linux website that is. Is there a legal entity like an Arch Foundation that oversees the books and cashes the checks? These questions suggest to me some sort of categorization that is not Official. Community perhaps?

I understand your point about the forums, wiki, IRC, and mailing lists being considered Official. They are sponsored on the official website, and have Arch developers as moderators, etc. However, the overwhelming majority of content is created by non-Arch developers - representing very much a Community effort. Consider this - the Official Install Guide is written by Arch developers and is on the latest install .iso. The Beginner's Guide is written by the community, and was excluded from a recent install .iso by the development team. To me, this example delineates Official from Community. And content produced largely by the Arch community should be categorized as Community. Your thoughts?

Finally, I don't see how AUR can be listed as an Official project. AUR is not produced exclusively by Arch developers or Trusted Users. Anybody can upload to it, and it is made very clear that AUR is a serious potential security risk. To me, that makes AUR something not official. Since it is strongly affiliated with Arch, and even appears on the Official Arch website, I categorized it as Comunity.

lseubert · 2009-06-03 10:02:17

Xyne wrote:

Just as a quick note, it should be "Xyne's Arch Linux Stuff"... I still need to tell dusty to fix that on the project page.

OK, Xyne - got it. I will fix that up in my notes. Thanks for the correction.

lseubert · 2009-06-03 10:09:40

tlaloc wrote:

You should get rid of this self-contradictory un-categorized category. Arch-i18n seems to be dead since 2005 and doesn't have be to mentioned at all (i18n-work on specific tools like pacman and AUR continues). I'm not so sure about hwd - but isn't this somehow deprecated by now? At least, it doesn't deserve a category on it's own.

Well, the reason there is uncategorized stuff is because I didn't know what category to put it in, and so I asked folks for advice. There is no plan to have an "Uncategorized" section on the Wikipage itself, just three categories - Official, Community, and Independent.

If Arch-i18n is dead, should I file a bug report to have it removed from the website?

What about hwd? I think there are some other Arch based distros that still use it, but I am not sure. If it is deprecated, is a removal bug report in order?

Allan · 2009-06-03 10:20:13

lseubert wrote:

First the schwag. I am puzzled by this one. First off, there are two separate schwag stores. If the schwag is Official, why not just one schwag store? And while I realize that the schwag stores are run by Arch developers and proceeds are returned to Arch, they are on separate websites - separate from the official Arch Linux website that is. Is there a legal entity like an Arch Foundation that oversees the books and cashes the checks? These questions suggest to me some sort of categorization that is not Official. Community perhaps?

There are two stores because Zazzle could not offer everything people requested so Dusty setup another store for those sort of items.

lseubert wrote:

I understand your point about the forums, wiki, IRC, and mailing lists being considered Official. They are sponsored on the official website, and have Arch developers as moderators, etc. However, the overwhelming majority of content is created by non-Arch developers - representing very much a Community effort. Consider this - the Official Install Guide is written by Arch developers and is on the latest install .iso. The Beginner's Guide is written by the community, and was excluded from a recent install .iso by the development team. To me, this example delineates Official from Community. And content produced largely by the Arch community should be categorized as Community. Your thoughts?

My main point was to get the mailing lists in the same category as the forums, wiki, IRC etc. Also, I didn't realise the Beginner's Guide was removed from the install CD...

tlaloc · 2009-06-03 10:50:44

Oops, sorry - I mixed up two different projects with the same name. The dead one is over here:
http://arch-i18n.berlios.de/
The one you thought of is maintained by an active dev:
http://dev.archlinux.org/~hugo/arch-i18n/
Doesn't seem that much happens over there, but this may change when the new installer is up and running. It also means, however, that the second project may well be considered official.

lseubert · 2009-06-03 15:55:34

Allan wrote:

There are two stores because Zazzle could not offer everything people requested so Dusty setup another store for those sort of items.

Ah, OK. Hmm, maybe I should ask them if the Schwag stores are Official or Community?

Allan wrote:

My main point was to get the mailing lists in the same category as the forums, wiki, IRC etc. Also, I didn't realise the Beginner's Guide was removed from the install CD...

OK, I understand your point. And it is a good one. I moved the mailing lists over to Community, so that everything that belongs in the same category is now actually listed in the same category. Thanks.

lseubert · 2009-06-03 16:01:05

tlaloc wrote:

Oops, sorry - I mixed up two different projects with the same name. The dead one is over here:
http://arch-i18n.berlios.de/
The one you thought of is maintained by an active dev:
http://dev.archlinux.org/~hugo/arch-i18n/
Doesn't seem that much happens over there, but this may change when the new installer is up and running. It also means, however, that the second project may well be considered official.

Thanks tlaloc. I'll make a note to drop the one, but use the other.

Does anybody know what is going on with Arch Linux Galleries?

genisis300 · 2009-06-03 17:55:22

Maybe this would be to much to maintaine but alot of people have written apps although not Dedicated arch projects but built by Arch users
For Example

Powerpill volwheel batterymon(shamless plug) that arch browser that i've seen about yaourt etc etc

Last edited by genisis300 (2009-06-03 17:56:35)

lseubert · 2009-06-03 23:40:11

genisis300 wrote:

Maybe this would be to much to maintaine but alot of people have written apps although not Dedicated arch projects but built by Arch users
For Example
Powerpill volwheel batterymon(shamless plug) that arch browser that i've seen about yaourt etc etc

Yup. I have noted Powerpill and yaourt - run both of them on my system. I didn't write them out specifically in the list of categories above, but they are included under Xyne's Arch Linux Stuff.

Volwheel and batterymon are not Arch specific projects, so they won't be on the Arch Community wikipage. Sorry.

Xyne · 2009-06-04 00:08:31

lseubert wrote:

Yup. I have noted Powerpill and yaourt - run both of them on my system. I didn't write them out specifically in the list of categories above, but they are included under Xyne's Arch Linux Stuff.

Yaourt is hosted on http://archlinux.fr which you might want to include somewhere (I don't actually have anything to do with yaourt).

Allan · 2009-06-04 00:14:34

lseubert wrote:

Allan wrote:
There are two stores because Zazzle could not offer everything people requested so Dusty setup another store for those sort of items.
Ah, OK. Hmm, maybe I should ask them if the Schwag stores are Official or Community?

They are both official. BTW, Zazzle is the name of the store...

lseubert · 2009-06-04 02:04:00

Xyne wrote:

Yaourt is hosted on http://archlinux.fr which you might want to include somewhere (I don't actually have anything to do with yaourt).

Noted. Actually, there is a page I found that list's your stuff, yaourt, and a few other helper apps. That is the one I was referring to. I'll have to organize those sections of the wikipage more carefully when I get around to writing that bit. Thanks for the tip.

lseubert · 2009-06-04 02:06:59

Allan wrote:

They are both official. BTW, Zazzle is the name of the store...

OK, I'll change my mindmap file accordingly. Thanks for your help Allan.

Ghost1227 · 2009-06-06 14:10:30

You can add http://arch-stuff.org

Dusty · 2009-06-06 14:42:46

I really should have commented on the schwag question sooner, but I was ignoring the forums.

I started the original zazzle schwag store because I wanted a t-shirt. It wasn't official at the time because I wasn't a dev, but I had Aaron's permission and went with it. I started the second schwag store because, as Allan said, there were requests for things that zazzle wouldn't sell or I found things that looked neat. This second store isn't doing that well, and I'm thinking of closing it after the last items sell out.

I maintain them both, and in my mind, they are part of the same store, the only reason they're separate is because I haven't figured out zazzle's API to build a custom storefront that would integrate everything. The zazzle store takes care of itself in that I don't have to think of payment details, shipping, etc. As far as naming goes, zazzle is the company providing custom printing, and I often refer to it as 'the zazzle store', and the custom merchandise as 'Other Schwag'. 'Arch Schwag' refers to both stores collectively. 'Arch Swag' is and always will be incorrect.

I never considered either project to be 'official', but that's just because I never got a memo saying it had been accepted into the fold. If other devs, such as Allan, are saying it is official, then it is.

More on-topic, I think trying to taxonimize arch according to these categorizations is doomed to failure. I believe there is an article in some newsletter long ago where I discussed the differences between the Arch developers and community members. My basic premise was that we're all on the same team (at the time there was a bit of grumbling about the way the project was run), and the titles are superficial. Generally developers are just people who happened to have contributed more to the project than other community members... but there are community members, including myself for several years, that have contributed many hours to Arch and were not developers. The classification of your project isn't important, its how useful it is, and how used it is. Basically every project that becomes 'official' first starts off as a community contribution, even if its written by a dev.

Dusty

Last edited by Dusty (2009-06-06 14:44:53)

lseubert · 2009-06-07 13:13:08

Ghost1227 wrote:

You can add http://arch-stuff.org

Will do. Thanks for the great tip. I hadn't found that one.

lseubert · 2009-06-07 13:33:52

Dusty wrote:

I never considered either project to be 'official', but that's just because I never got a memo saying it had been accepted into the fold. If other devs, such as Allan, are saying it is official, then it is.

Yeah, I had a hard time figuring out where the stores should go. I sort of think Community makes more sense, but folks more knowledgable than I tend towards Official, so I am cool with that.

Dusty wrote:

More on-topic, I think trying to taxonimize arch according to these categorizations is doomed to failure.

Dusty, I understand your point here - it is hard to taxonomize the Arch community. However, look at this from the perspective of a wikipage editor trying to put together a comprehensive Arch Community wikipage with descriptions, links, how to participate info, and contact info. This page is going to be huge! It needs to be categorized in some manner to make it well organized and thus easier to read and use.

You are right - the designations are a bit futile. In the rough draft of the Introduction of the article, I point this out. But the classification is necessary to get the content under control, organized, and well presented. By way of example, I recently overhauled the Arch-based Distros wikipage. There are 21, soon to be 22, distros listed on the page. In order to present that information in a readily comprehensible way, I had to categorize the distros by Active, Meta, and Discontinued. I think such categorization will likewise help the Arch Community wikipage.

That said, part of my original request at the beginning of this thread was for suggestions for different Categories to organize the Arch Community wikipage. If anybody has improvements on the 'Official-Community-Independent' categorization scheme, please do post your ideas. Or sub-categories too. I am early enough in the editing process that switching all that around won't be painful. Thank heavens for FreeMind!

Thanks for the advice everyone - I appeciate the feedback.

Arch Linux

#1 2009-06-03 00:58:05

Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#2 2009-06-03 01:04:40

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#3 2009-06-03 02:05:42

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#4 2009-06-03 03:53:07

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#5 2009-06-03 05:16:43

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#6 2009-06-03 07:23:12

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#7 2009-06-03 09:59:33

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#8 2009-06-03 10:02:17

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#9 2009-06-03 10:09:40

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#10 2009-06-03 10:20:13

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#11 2009-06-03 10:50:44

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#12 2009-06-03 15:55:34

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#13 2009-06-03 16:01:05

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#14 2009-06-03 17:55:22

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#15 2009-06-03 23:40:11

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#16 2009-06-04 00:08:31

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#17 2009-06-04 00:14:34

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#18 2009-06-04 02:04:00

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#19 2009-06-04 02:06:59

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#20 2009-06-06 14:10:30

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#21 2009-06-06 14:42:46

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#22 2009-06-07 13:13:08

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

#23 2009-06-07 13:33:52

Re: Categorizing the breadth and depth of the Arch Community...

Board footer