KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

2_Thumbs_Up · 2009-06-16 21:02:38

As the topic title suggests I'd like to see some discussion on how a DE that adheres to the Arch philosophy should look like.
I believe that the KISS concept has a lot of potential but unfurtunately there are very few alternatives when it comes to some parts
of regular desktop use (the uzbl thread is one example of a very integral app completely missing a good alternative). So I
figured that it could be quite productive with som general discussion on KISS apps, in order to find out where we are at
right now. How do you think that the optimal desktop environment should look like? Let the goal be that it should be accessible
to anyone without departing from the core principles.

I'll start off the discussion by mentioning one area that i think is really lacking in this aspect, instant messeging. I have yet to find any GUI
IM client that satisfies my needs. This is a very integral part of the desktop for a lot of users. Since I have a crush on daemons I would love
to see an IM daemon+frontend solution. I really like how integrated this could become with other parts of the desktop.

Anyway, please continue the discussion. You probably have a lot more to contribute here than I do. So what existing apps do you think
could be used in a KISS environment and which kind of apps need a complete rewrite in order to function and be integrated nicely?

I hope this thread will cover everything from panels and clip board managers to media players and file managers. Hopefully the discussion
could result in a few ideas and some action like the thread on web browsers did.

crouse · 2009-06-16 21:25:49

2_Thumbs_Up wrote:

I'll start off the discussion by mentioning one area that i think is really lacking in this aspect, instant messeging. I have yet to find any GUI
IM client that satisfies my needs.

ever try bitlbee ? Not a true gui client though. Better than gui if you ask me

Themaister · 2009-06-17 06:19:48

I would love an IM daemon... I hate to have to relog onto MSN everytime I switch computer, quit X, or whatever.

pauldonnelly · 2009-06-17 06:41:56

Maybe it would look a lot like a Plan 9 desktop. That would be nice.

IMO, a KISS desktop would not include a panel or a clipboard manager.

ngoonee · 2009-06-17 09:26:35

Without a panel but WITH a system tray.

iphitus · 2009-06-17 09:45:32

ngoonee wrote:

Without a panel but WITH a system tray.

stalonetray and trayer?

Random point, if you want decoration-less windows (ala tiling WMs) in Openbox, chuck this in ~/.config/openbox/rc.xml in the <applications> section. After all, decorations are just that keyboard shortcuts and alt-click do the job!

    <application class="*">
      <decor>no</decor>
    </application>

ngoonee · 2009-06-17 14:00:13

Yes, I know of stalonetray and trayer. Unfortunately both of them didn't work very well for me (would extend for no reason, show empty icons, not show above my maximized windows, etc). So I'm currently using cairo-dock's systray, which has been really good (at first the design wouldn't allow it to be flush against the top of the screen, but I posted about that in his forums and the dev modified it for me the next day ).

cinan · 2009-06-17 14:31:02

IM topic is very problematic - you have just three multi protocol clients: kopete(big slow crap), pidgin(quite good, but no deamon), finch(unusable).

robmaloy · 2009-06-17 15:06:55

cinan wrote:

IM topic is very problematic - you have just three multi protocol clients: kopete(big slow crap), pidgin(quite good, but no deamon), finch(unusable).

centerim is quite good but version 4 lacks unicode and version 5 doesnt work (yet)

cinan · 2009-06-17 15:11:51

yeah, I tried centerim, but there's no chance to have 3 jabber accounts.

moljac024 · 2009-06-17 15:15:34

cinan wrote:

IM topic is very problematic - you have just three multi protocol clients: kopete(big slow crap), pidgin(quite good, but no deamon), finch(unusable).

bitblee - multiclient, used through irc, daemon. But pidgin is still more feature rich..

iphitus wrote:

Random point, if you want decoration-less windows (ala tiling WMs) in Openbox, chuck this in ~/.config/openbox/rc.xml in the <applications> section. After all, decorations are just that keyboard shortcuts and alt-click do the job!
    <application class="*">
      <decor>no</decor>
    </application>

Decorations have a function too - clickable buttons that do stuff !

LeoSolaris · 2009-06-18 01:29:17

If you want a "desktop" that only does one thing, what about the basic desktop that we test X11 with in the wiki? Just use xinitrc to start the couple of apps that you want to use. I recommend a terminal, that way you can just start what you want.

I find it pretty effective if I just want to make a quick Google pic search when I have been working in console and I do not want to wait for Openbox to start up. That extra 5 seconds is largely a waste of time, since it starts more programs. (Useful programs, but not always desired.)

This approach also has the beauty of not needing to download anything beyond the Xorg group as a desktop.

Phrodo_00 · 2009-06-18 01:31:05

freedesktop telepathy is kind of a daemon... dunno if you can run it on the system bus from outside your session though...

darthaxul · 2009-06-18 03:09:57

For me thinking about the KISS principle applied to software; It doesn't dictate which software to use, but rather how the software options are configured.
You could have the most massive DE there is on the planet, but the KISS principle will slash out the excess. It makes more sense that way, because even the most simple of DE's will still have excess.

Heller_Barde · 2009-07-04 08:39:21

pauldonnelly wrote:

IMO, a KISS desktop would not include a panel or a clipboard manager.

What do you consider a Clipboard manager?

I think before we could discuss a possible KISS Desktop Environment, we have to decide on the Goalposts, i.e. what is the task a Desktop has to accomplish.
This is my idea of a Desktop Environment:

It should provide a general framework with easy to access options to control the computer's essential (hardware) functions, like

- WLAN Roaming
- CPU Throttling (for laptops)
- Mounting Harddrives, Disks, Flashdrives

additionally, it should include a window manager (not necessarily it's own). Furthermore, the DE should have a facility to provide easy access to various programs (decided by the user)

The point where i am not sure about is whether Terminal apps, Editors, and so on are an integral part of the Desktop Environment. Gnome and KDE have their own... XFCE has it's own (...i think). I tend to say that they're not...

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that

cheers Barde

Last edited by Heller_Barde (2009-07-04 15:35:25)

pauldonnelly · 2009-07-04 19:58:02

Heller_Barde wrote:

pauldonnelly wrote:
IMO, a KISS desktop would not include a panel or a clipboard manager.
What do you consider a Clipboard manager?

A program like xclipboard. It strikes me as one of those thing's that's just as easy to work without, same as a panel. The same goes for a lot of status info and tray icons. Except for a clock and a battery monitor, what is this doing but cluttering your screen?

Heller_Barde wrote:

The point where i am not sure about is whether Terminal apps, Editors, and so on are an integral part of the Desktop Environment. Gnome and KDE have their own... XFCE has it's own (...i think). I tend to say that they're not...

I think they definitely are. A DE should have a full application suite. Otherwise it's not much of an environment, it's just a slightly different wrapper for a real environment.

pogeymanz · 2009-07-05 20:12:19

Well, I'd go as far as to say that most Archers have their own very modular DE's. A lot of people use Openbox+whatever panel+whatever terminal+browser, etc...

Isn't that good enough?

XFCE4.4 was very modular as well. You could get away with only installing xfwm4, xfdesktop, and the settings manager. 4.6 requires a little bit more, unfortunately.

thisllub · 2009-07-06 00:41:14

Separating a DE from a WM is problematic in some ways.
E17 is the only one I know of that allows desktop rotation on individual monitors with multi monitor setups.
That means much more to me than IM clients ( I have never used any IM at all). It is the reason I use E17 on my desktop.
I use OpenBox on my laptop.

A good clipboard is important. Unfortunately most terminals have problems with the common ones.
I don't know how clipboards are implemented now but I think that they are so important that a hook for one should probably be integrated into X (if it already isn't).
A system tray is less important.
OpenBox and E17 both have a very simple, functional lists of open apps available from keystrokes. This is faster than a system tray.

I also see no need for a panel and have no love for items embedded on a desktop.

The Run Command dialog in E17 (I use gmrun in OpenBox and find it inferior yet useful) is worthwhile and the most useful running app.

OpenBox has the ability to map keystrokes to window management functions that I find outstanding. To size and place a window with a keystroke combination is brilliant.

Auxiliary apps like media managers would IMHO be better if they operated as popups.

My ideal system would provide hooks into menus to place apps to display drives, favorites lists etc. as the pipe menus in OpenBox do.
This would provide scope for apps to perform functions as the user requires and can imagine.

Last edited by thisllub (2009-07-06 00:42:34)

Allamgir · 2009-07-18 13:46:05

I smell another dwm fork...

dptkby · 2009-07-18 17:20:31

pogeymanz wrote:

Well, I'd go as far as to say that most Archers have their own very modular DE's. A lot of people use Openbox+whatever panel+whatever terminal+browser, etc...
Isn't that good enough?

I agree; that's the KISS principle/Arch philosophy/Unix way applied to "desktop environments". As long as the different components of the DE play nicely together, which, I believe, is what freedesktop.org is trying to accomplish, there's no need for an actual project calling itself a "desktop environment". I believe that's the kind of mindset that yields apps like uzbl.

Gnome and KDE are, of course, following a slightly different path. There's nothing wrong with that, but they're not necessarily designed according to what is traditionally called the Unix philosophy.

Arch Linux

#1 2009-06-16 21:02:38

KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#2 2009-06-16 21:25:49

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#3 2009-06-17 06:19:48

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#4 2009-06-17 06:41:56

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#5 2009-06-17 09:26:35

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#6 2009-06-17 09:45:32

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#7 2009-06-17 14:00:13

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#8 2009-06-17 14:31:02

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#9 2009-06-17 15:06:55

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#10 2009-06-17 15:11:51

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#11 2009-06-17 15:15:34

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#12 2009-06-18 01:29:17

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#13 2009-06-18 01:31:05

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#14 2009-06-18 03:09:57

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#15 2009-07-04 08:39:21

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#16 2009-07-04 19:58:02

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#17 2009-07-05 20:12:19

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#18 2009-07-06 00:41:14

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#19 2009-07-18 13:46:05

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

#20 2009-07-18 17:20:31

Re: KISS principle applied to a complete desktop environment

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