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#26 2008-04-21 15:38:13

zodmaner
Member
Registered: 2007-07-11
Posts: 653

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

louipc wrote:

If you need help, ask for it. A lot of us are itching to help.

That's exactly what I feels. There all a lot of us users who want to (and can) help with bugs and outdated packages.


Memento mori

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#27 2008-04-24 22:32:01

ConnorBehan
Trusted User (TU)
From: Long Island NY
Registered: 2007-07-05
Posts: 1,356
Website

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Alright! I registered on the sk1project forum just to post that uniconvertor bug. I don't expect it to be fixed any time soon, but now no one can say it's my fault because I didn't report it tongue.


6EA3 F3F3 B908 2632 A9CB E931 D53A 0445 B47A 0DAB
Great things come in tar.xz packages.

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#28 2008-04-25 14:39:18

despairblue
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-01-14
Posts: 19

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Just wanted to follow the good advice by submitting a bug report for compiz fusion.
I couldn't find the bug tracker and asked for it on irc://irc.freenode.net/compiz-fusion. They told me where to find it, but suggestet reading http://wiki.compiz-fusion.org/HowtoSubmitBugReports first.

Just an excerpt:

There are far more people reading the web forum, mailing lists and participating on IRC than there are going over bugs. This is why we urge everyone to discuss their problem before they create a ticket, not because we don't want to help you. Simply put: The chances of getting your problem solved quickly are far greater on the web forum than on the bug tracker.

big_smile

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#29 2008-04-25 15:20:57

iphitus
Forum Fellow
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

I'm not saying don't discuss it, I'm asking people to handle those discussions better.

Take the two examples above. In the first, someone tells someone to use something else, despite there being a _clear_ bug.

The second, again, a _clear_ bug again.

Discussion is great, I just want people to actually file a bug when there's a problem, and not accept some temporary band-aid solution and hope the bug is fixed in 6 months.

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#30 2008-04-25 17:35:38

Stefan Husmann
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2007-08-07
Posts: 997

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Some experiences I made not too long ago.

A package I maintain in AUR - vym - did not build any longer due to some GCC 4.3 issue. I wrote a patch and submitted it to the AUR. Afterwards I send the patch to the mailing list. Some minutes later someone sent a link to a debian patch site with nearly exactly the same patchfile.

The developer of vym answered and said, that there is a cvs version of vym, and asked me to test if these patches are needed there, too. They were not, but I found another similar gcc 4.3 related bug in cvs and gave another patch. This got upstream not much later.

So now we have to versions of vym in AUR, a stable one with a "Workaround" patch and a cvs version with no patches needed. I think this is fine.

Some other cases went similar. I think the upstreamers are only waiting for patches coming from the communities, at least in smaller projects.

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#31 2008-05-18 09:17:48

kobaia
Member
Registered: 2008-03-30
Posts: 3

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

freakcode wrote:
iphitus wrote:

I see this a lot. It pisses me off.

File bugs, don't ignore them! That's how bugs perpetuate and last for ages. Or maybe a bug is lingering/unconfirmed and we need more info, you could provide that info. (Cue Uncle Sam?)

...

It's irritating to hear people whinging "this software is so buggy, this bug hasnt been fixed for months". That's your fault because you did nothing about it, and you can only blame yourself. Open Source developers do not have the resources to test on all hardware/configurations.

I guess its because big part of the current userbase comes from proprietary software culture, where people don't have the habit of interacting with the developer, don't fill bug reports, and so on. I would say they even don't "feel" they can improve the software. All they do is download a shareware, if it sucks, they download another and another, or if they buy some software that crashes on their faces, they curse the manufacturer, but keep buying the same crapware because it's "widespread". Software is really a very different type of "product" - the only I know that is released not completly finished neither fail-proof.

I stumbled into this post just now, looking for a solution to a ettercap-lib issue and begun reading and this struck me kind of hard since, yeah, I never thought of it this way but it is absolutely true and I am in great shame. I will instantly begin to keep eyes out for bugs not just to get them fixed or worked around but to report them.

This should be in arch-philosophy-section, or somewhere where it is easily readable. It did really get my eyes open. Going for the bugtracker right now.

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#32 2008-05-18 10:42:46

shining
Pacman Developer
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 2,043

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

kobaia wrote:
freakcode wrote:

I guess its because big part of the current userbase comes from proprietary software culture, where people don't have the habit of interacting with the developer, don't fill bug reports, and so on. I would say they even don't "feel" they can improve the software. All they do is download a shareware, if it sucks, they download another and another, or if they buy some software that crashes on their faces, they curse the manufacturer, but keep buying the same crapware because it's "widespread". Software is really a very different type of "product" - the only I know that is released not completly finished neither fail-proof.

I stumbled into this post just now, looking for a solution to a ettercap-lib issue and begun reading and this struck me kind of hard since, yeah, I never thought of it this way but it is absolutely true and I am in great shame. I will instantly begin to keep eyes out for bugs not just to get them fixed or worked around but to report them.

This should be in arch-philosophy-section, or somewhere where it is easily readable. It did really get my eyes open. Going for the bugtracker right now.

It is more general, rather open source philosophy than just archlinux philosophy. So it applies to archlinux itself and its own bug tracker, but also to every open source apps that archlinux uses, and their respective bug trackers.
But even without getting into these details, explaining that philosophy by contrast to proprietary software is still interesting and could be put somewhere.


pacman roulette : pacman -S $(pacman -Slq | LANG=C sort -R | head -n $((RANDOM % 10)))

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#33 2008-05-18 11:17:16

kobaia
Member
Registered: 2008-03-30
Posts: 3

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

shining wrote:
kobaia wrote:
freakcode wrote:

I guess its because big part of the current userbase comes from proprietary software culture, where people don't have the habit of interacting with the developer, don't fill bug reports, and so on. I would say they even don't "feel" they can improve the software. All they do is download a shareware, if it sucks, they download another and another, or if they buy some software that crashes on their faces, they curse the manufacturer, but keep buying the same crapware because it's "widespread". Software is really a very different type of "product" - the only I know that is released not completly finished neither fail-proof.

I stumbled into this post just now, looking for a solution to a ettercap-lib issue and begun reading and this struck me kind of hard since, yeah, I never thought of it this way but it is absolutely true and I am in great shame. I will instantly begin to keep eyes out for bugs not just to get them fixed or worked around but to report them.

This should be in arch-philosophy-section, or somewhere where it is easily readable. It did really get my eyes open. Going for the bugtracker right now.

It is more general, rather open source philosophy than just archlinux philosophy. So it applies to archlinux itself and its own bug tracker, but also to every open source apps that archlinux uses, and their respective bug trackers.
But even without getting into these details, explaining that philosophy by contrast to proprietary software is still interesting and could be put somewhere.

Yeah, thats also true, about several bugtrackers needing reporting of bugs.
But its a bit weird, it never hit me until now the real importance of reporting bugs. I think it was the 'if you do not report it, other people might not report it neither and you settle for a stupid workaround that only semi-works or works half-assed and since noone reports it, it never gets fixed.' that made me go 'uh, oh.'. smile

I switched to ubuntu about 2 years ago and to arch about 6 months ago and I have looked upon the bugsections like something that I cannot do much about as I am not a programmer, developer but a user and my point of view on bugs was basicly to just wait and it'll get fixed if it needs to get fixed and even though I embraced the open source philosophy as I was presented to it and felt that my opinions towards proprietary software grew from slight distaste to somewhere in anguished tormented hatred as this happened. I still havent thought far enough to actually start reporting bugs on my own, I read licences and ideas on how things should work and I agree that community ruling is the best way to build basicly anything. I just dont feel as if I stumbled upon the idea that even newbies can report bugs, or felt as if i were supposed to do such things; as it belongs to the developers tasks. But im wrong! Its my task to report bugs I find. smile

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#34 2008-08-22 12:20:08

genisis300
Member
From: Uk
Registered: 2008-01-15
Posts: 284

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Sorry if i've misread this topic,
am i right in thinking that the bug tracker for arch is for Arch problems only say a problem with pacman, init scripts  etc,
Do all of the userbase know how to tell the difference between an Arch bug and a software bug like thunar not ejecting Cd's?


"is adult entertainment killing our children or is killing our children entertaining adults?" Marilyn Manson

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#35 2008-08-22 12:55:43

shining
Pacman Developer
Registered: 2006-05-10
Posts: 2,043

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

genisis300 wrote:

Sorry if i've misread this topic,
am i right in thinking that the bug tracker for arch is for Arch problems only say a problem with pacman, init scripts  etc,
Do all of the userbase know how to tell the difference between an Arch bug and a software bug like thunar not ejecting Cd's?

The discussion happening on Arch bug tracker can be used to find out whether a problem is upstream or not.

And even when the user found out that the bug was upstream, alerting Arch developers and users by opening a bug on Arch bug tracker is a good thing too.


pacman roulette : pacman -S $(pacman -Slq | LANG=C sort -R | head -n $((RANDOM % 10)))

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#36 2008-08-22 13:37:01

iphitus
Forum Fellow
From: Melbourne, Australia
Registered: 2004-10-09
Posts: 4,927

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

And the discussion on the arch bug tracker from multiple users can be valuable for upstream too.

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#37 2008-08-22 14:25:56

rooloo
Member
Registered: 2008-07-09
Posts: 218

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

I think that the basic problem(at least, I have it sometimes) is recognizing what are bugs and what are just silly configuration questions.

Not everyone is a computer guru, but it doesn't take a genius to follow iphitus advice and learn how to take part in the discussion of certain issues. You may not have the answer, but you have the problem. With some simple adivice and discussion you should easily have your asnwer. Whether that be a fix for the problem or a verification that the problem is a software 'BUG'

ARCH IS A COMMUNITY DRIVEN DISTRO. THE COMMUNITY MUST PARTICIPATE ON ALL LEVELS.

I'm not saying don't discuss it, I'm asking people to handle those discussions better.

Take the two examples above. In the first, someone tells someone to use something else, despite there being a _clear_ bug.

The second, again, a _clear_ bug again.

Discussion is great, I just want people to actually file a bug when there's a problem, and not accept some temporary band-aid solution and hope the bug is fixed in 6 months.

Last edited by rooloo (2008-08-22 14:26:43)

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#38 2008-08-22 14:27:22

rooloo
Member
Registered: 2008-07-09
Posts: 218

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

FYI, the irc channel for arch is always jumping with discussions of all sorts of problems related to arch.

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#39 2008-08-24 15:49:22

Xiong Chiamiov
Member
From: central coast, california
Registered: 2008-06-18
Posts: 141
Website

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

freakcode wrote:
iphitus wrote:

I see this a lot. It pisses me off.

File bugs, don't ignore them! That's how bugs perpetuate and last for ages. Or maybe a bug is lingering/unconfirmed and we need more info, you could provide that info. (Cue Uncle Sam?)

...

It's irritating to hear people whinging "this software is so buggy, this bug hasnt been fixed for months". That's your fault because you did nothing about it, and you can only blame yourself. Open Source developers do not have the resources to test on all hardware/configurations.

I guess its because big part of the current userbase comes from proprietary software culture, where people don't have the habit of interacting with the developer, don't fill bug reports, and so on. I would say they even don't "feel" they can improve the software. All they do is download a shareware, if it sucks, they download another and another, or if they buy some software that crashes on their faces, they curse the manufacturer, but keep buying the same crapware because it's "widespread". Software is really a very different type of "product" - the only I know that is released not completly finished neither fail-proof.

I'd say that I have this mentality because I'm coming from proprietary software, but rather because I came from *buntu.  Aside from some bugs just having tons and tons of workarounds, many things have been fixed upstream, yet don't get updated in the repos.  You're just left with workarounds then.  One of the reasons I left *buntu was because my installation was so hacked up with workarounds that it was entirely unpredictable, and I was always trying to find workarounds for the problems that came from the original workarounds.

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#40 2008-08-24 19:33:48

freakcode
Member
From: São Paulo - Brazil
Registered: 2007-11-03
Posts: 410
Website

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Xiong Chiamiov wrote:
freakcode wrote:
iphitus wrote:

I see this a lot. It pisses me off.

File bugs, don't ignore them! That's how bugs perpetuate and last for ages. Or maybe a bug is lingering/unconfirmed and we need more info, you could provide that info. (Cue Uncle Sam?)

...

It's irritating to hear people whinging "this software is so buggy, this bug hasnt been fixed for months". That's your fault because you did nothing about it, and you can only blame yourself. Open Source developers do not have the resources to test on all hardware/configurations.

I guess its because big part of the current userbase comes from proprietary software culture, where people don't have the habit of interacting with the developer, don't fill bug reports, and so on. I would say they even don't "feel" they can improve the software. All they do is download a shareware, if it sucks, they download another and another, or if they buy some software that crashes on their faces, they curse the manufacturer, but keep buying the same crapware because it's "widespread". Software is really a very different type of "product" - the only I know that is released not completly finished neither fail-proof.

I'd say that I have this mentality because I'm coming from proprietary software, but rather because I came from *buntu.  Aside from some bugs just having tons and tons of workarounds, many things have been fixed upstream, yet don't get updated in the repos.  You're just left with workarounds then.  One of the reasons I left *buntu was because my installation was so hacked up with workarounds that it was entirely unpredictable, and I was always trying to find workarounds for the problems that came from the original workarounds.

Right. And I guess this comes from the relase model, where you are left with virtually the same versions of everything during 6 months - 2 years, and have to maintain backport patches and workarounds from things that are already fixed upstream. The release model for Linux, at least for desktop users, is IMHO flawed.

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#41 2008-08-25 03:24:38

Misfit138
Misfit Emeritus
From: USA
Registered: 2006-11-27
Posts: 4,170

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

freakcode wrote:

Right. And I guess this comes from the relase model, where you are left with virtually the same versions of everything during 6 months - 2 years, and have to maintain backport patches and workarounds from things that are already fixed upstream. The release model for Linux, at least for desktop users, is IMHO flawed.

Agreed. Highly flawed, if you consider such maintenance and required interactivity to be an annoyance. I find it annoying sometimes.
With computers, you sort of have to 'pick your poison'. This is true for hardware, software and OS's I think.

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#42 2009-02-14 22:07:41

pippin
Member
Registered: 2006-12-17
Posts: 2

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

As a KDE developer (and so as someone who has experience from the "other side" of the bug tracker), I would say that if you are not sure about whether something is a bug, REPORT IT.  Sane bugtrackers have things like INVALID and WONTFIX resolution states that developers will happily use if they don't believe something is a bug.  If your bug report is detailed enough, developers can often tell at a glance if this is the right response.

That said, I've noticed that bugs (even ones that are trivial to fix) tend to linger on Arch's bugtracker for a lot longer than they should.  I posted a comment on a bug that had been open for a while, and the assignee posted back saying "oh, sorry, completely forgot about this".  And there's another bug (again, a trivial fix) that's been sitting open for ages, meaning I've been having to compile my own mysql from aur every time the [extra] packages are upgraded.

I wonder if Arch would benefit from a team of non-dev triagers to confirm bugs and weed out ones that are no longer (or never were) valid.  Certainly, they are effective in KDE.

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#43 2009-02-14 22:24:21

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,329
Website

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Arch does have a team of three or four people whose job it is just to deal with the bug tracker.  There has been talk about having a bug day soon so that we can get rid of most of those trivial bugs but no-one has decided to organise it....

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#44 2009-02-16 01:00:14

ataraxia
Member
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: 2007-05-06
Posts: 1,537

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

In addition to other reasons why people don't report bugs, I can add one more - many of us have had bad experiences with surly, rude developers on other Free Software projects. There are definitely a few dev teams that I don't bother interacting with any more, since I just get abused for my trouble. The Arch devs and TUs have always been polite to me, but how would new people, or those who don't participate much, know what kind of people work here?

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#45 2009-09-25 03:32:28

DEBIAN SOCIAL CONTRACT
Member
Registered: 2009-09-24
Posts: 6

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Where do I report bugs for [community]?

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#46 2009-09-25 03:44:45

Allan
Developer
From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,329
Website

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

The community project in the bugtracker ...

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#47 2009-09-25 13:18:00

kgas
Member
From: Qatar
Registered: 2008-11-08
Posts: 718

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

IMO, the number of times, manual patches/work around applied to arch system (5 laptops) is minimum to nil. Thanks to arch developers. In certain cases user can find what is missing by starting the application from terminal. For starters sometimes there is a reservation to report a problem, where the solution is before hand, as a bug. For eg alsconf creates a file without .conf extension. Osmo installs fine but requires gtkspell as dependency to start the application. In this community bugs are reported after a due discussions in the forum, a healthy trend.

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#48 2010-06-03 08:11:25

xelados
Member
Registered: 2007-06-02
Posts: 314
Website

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

I agree; a good discussion of the issue should be done before it goes to the bugtracker (or perhaps in tandem) in order to garner the most attention. Remember "Given enough eyes, all bugs are shallow"? Well, the bug can't be shallow if you post to JUST the forum or JUST the bugtracker. Do both, and you maximize the attention that the issue gets.

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#49 2010-09-12 17:16:29

Encho
Member
Registered: 2010-09-12
Posts: 16

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

Hope I won't annoy anyone. I am (new in linux and have never used forums) lost. I use linux Arch and I have problem with my dvdrom - when I insert an empty dvd it's does not react ? how can I fix that?
Thanks.

Last edited by Encho (2010-09-12 17:17:26)

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#50 2010-09-12 18:01:05

.:B:.
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2006-11-26
Posts: 5,819

Re: FIX/FILE BUGS don't IGNORE

This really isn't the place to ask that kind of question. There is a Newbie corner; it's all yours - make use of it.


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