why so many dependencies?

demonus · 2005-01-31 19:55:51

anyone previously working with slackware here?
I just don't get it, in slackware the kde packages had more less 160mb not counting qt and here pacman -S kde gives somethig like 212mb and what is interesting are the dependencies like xine-lib, jack-audio-connection-kit, mdnsresponder (what the hell is that?), libksba, gnokii...
well I know that it's very nice of package maintainers to provide us with packages which are up to date and 'stable', however it would also be nice to think about dependencies. how many of you use jack? or.. libksba (never heard of that either)
what I want to say is that there are lots of useless software which are said to be required (but they are not), it would be better if package mainaters would rather provide PKGBUILDs so that everyone could build their own packages and add this jack-sh**

scarecrow · 2005-01-31 20:14:37

If you are half-serious about audio in Linux you cannot do whithout jack ATM.
I don't use Gnome at all, but I never claimed that GTK2 is useless- and to be honest I fail to grasp the point of your post. Windows don't have any dependencies, and its not really Arch's fault that the Slackware package system does not take care of dependencies at all.

phrakture · 2005-01-31 20:15:12

well, if you don't like all the dependancies, feel free to ignore them with the "-d" flag (or --nodeps)...

I would assume those dependancies are there so as to allow someone to go "I want KDE" and just download it all, and have every piece work. I you know you'll never use jack-audio (never used it either) then just don't download it.

make a list of KDEs dependancies, and go through and grab only the ones you want. Then just do a "pacman -Sd kde" and there ya go.

dp · 2005-01-31 20:17:45

you must compare the same versions of kde ... from 3.0.x to 3.3.y is a long way of features added ;-)

i3839 · 2005-01-31 20:40:09

Kde's dependencies are a bit insane though, that Kde has a front-end for something doesn't mean that that "something" should be a dependency of Kde.

pacman -S kde:

:: group kde:
arts gwenview kdeaccessibility kdeaddons kdeadmin kdeartwork kdebase
kdebindings kdeedu kdegames kdegraphics kdelibs kdemultimedia kdenetwork
kdepim kdesdk kdetoys kdeutils
Install whole content? [Y/n] y
Targets: alsa-lib-1.0.8-1 libsndfile-1.0.11-1 jack-audio-connection-kit-0.99.0-1
qt-3.3.4-2 esd-0.2.35-1 arts-1.3.2-1 libgpg-error-1.0-1
libgcrypt-1.2.0-1 libxslt-1.1.12-1 libmng-1.0.8-1 openexr-1.2.1-1
fam-2.7.0-3 libidn-0.5.12-1 heimdal-0.6.2-2 kdelibs-3.3.2-5
gwenview-1.1.8-1 kdeaccessibility-3.3.2-1 flac-1.1.1-2
musicbrainz-2.1.1-2 tunepimp-0.3.0-3 taglib-1.3.1-1 speex-1.1.6-1
sdl-1.2.8-1 codecs-20050115-1 libtheora-1.0alpha4-1 xine-lib-1.0-1
libsamplerate-0.1.2-1 kdemultimedia-3.3.2-1 mtools-3.9.9-2
libraw1394-1.1.0-1 kdebase-3.3.2-4 xmms-1.2.10-3 pth-2.0.2-1
libksba-0.9.9-1 libassuan-0.6.7-1 pinentry-0.7.1-1 dirmngr-0.5.6-1
gnupg2-1.9.12-1 gpgme-1.0.1-1 pilot-link-0.11.8-3 gnokii-0.6.4-1
libmal-0.40-1 kdepim-3.3.2-2 kdegames-3.3.2-1 kdeaddons-3.3.2-3
kdeadmin-3.3.2-1 kdeartwork-3.3.2-1 ruby-1.8.2-3 kdebindings-3.3.2-3
kdeedu-3.3.2-1 libieee1284-0.2.8-1 sane-1.0.15-1 libexif-0.6.9-1
libgphoto2-2.1.5-1 lcms-1.14-1 fribidi-0.10.4-1 kdegraphics-3.3.2-3
wireless_tools-27-1 ppp-2.4.3-1 openslp-1.0.11-1 rdesktop-1.3.1-3
libtasn1-0.2.13-1 opencdk-0.5.5-1 gnutls-1.0.23-1 kdenetwork-3.3.2-1
kdesdk-3.3.2-2 kdetoys-3.3.2-1 tpctl-4.15-1 kdeutils-3.3.2-1
Total Package Size: 224.2 MB

What's all that sound stuff doing in the list? musicbrainz? Both alsa and esd? tunepimp? sdl? xmms? gnokii? ruby? sane? wireless_tools? ppp? rdesktop? tpctl? That's plain silly.

It's that I don't use Kde, or I'd posted a bugreport, but with such dependencies I for sure won't ever try it (though it's still 179 Mb of bloat without deps).

demonus · 2005-01-31 20:40:45

scarecrow - well I did not claim that GTK2 is useless, just wanted to check out new kde
what I meant is that there are just too many dependecies, what I am used to are small packages with just enough features built in, the really really necessary stuff and arch will not be fast anymore if you install that much software which you dont need
just look at pacman -Si xmms <-- what is esd needed for? do you know anyone using esd? if i wanted esd output then I could rebuild the package

and finally I dont say that its arch fault - the package dependency checking

phrakture · 2005-01-31 20:44:27

i3839 wrote:

pacman -S kde:
:: group kde:
arts gwenview kdeaccessibility kdeaddons kdeadmin kdeartwork kdebase
kdebindings kdeedu kdegames kdegraphics kdelibs kdemultimedia kdenetwork
kdepim kdesdk kdetoys kdeutils
Install whole content? [Y/n] y
Targets: alsa-lib-1.0.8-1 libsndfile-1.0.11-1 jack-audio-connection-kit-0.99.0-1
qt-3.3.4-2 esd-0.2.35-1 arts-1.3.2-1 libgpg-error-1.0-1
libgcrypt-1.2.0-1 libxslt-1.1.12-1 libmng-1.0.8-1 openexr-1.2.1-1
fam-2.7.0-3 libidn-0.5.12-1 heimdal-0.6.2-2 kdelibs-3.3.2-5
gwenview-1.1.8-1 kdeaccessibility-3.3.2-1 flac-1.1.1-2
musicbrainz-2.1.1-2 tunepimp-0.3.0-3 taglib-1.3.1-1 speex-1.1.6-1
sdl-1.2.8-1 codecs-20050115-1 libtheora-1.0alpha4-1 xine-lib-1.0-1
libsamplerate-0.1.2-1 kdemultimedia-3.3.2-1 mtools-3.9.9-2
libraw1394-1.1.0-1 kdebase-3.3.2-4 xmms-1.2.10-3 pth-2.0.2-1
libksba-0.9.9-1 libassuan-0.6.7-1 pinentry-0.7.1-1 dirmngr-0.5.6-1
gnupg2-1.9.12-1 gpgme-1.0.1-1 pilot-link-0.11.8-3 gnokii-0.6.4-1
libmal-0.40-1 kdepim-3.3.2-2 kdegames-3.3.2-1 kdeaddons-3.3.2-3
kdeadmin-3.3.2-1 kdeartwork-3.3.2-1 ruby-1.8.2-3 kdebindings-3.3.2-3
kdeedu-3.3.2-1 libieee1284-0.2.8-1 sane-1.0.15-1 libexif-0.6.9-1
libgphoto2-2.1.5-1 lcms-1.14-1 fribidi-0.10.4-1 kdegraphics-3.3.2-3
wireless_tools-27-1 ppp-2.4.3-1 openslp-1.0.11-1 rdesktop-1.3.1-3
libtasn1-0.2.13-1 opencdk-0.5.5-1 gnutls-1.0.23-1 kdenetwork-3.3.2-1
kdesdk-3.3.2-2 kdetoys-3.3.2-1 tpctl-4.15-1 kdeutils-3.3.2-1
Total Package Size: 224.2 MB

holy crap... I should try that!

I'd post a bug report, but I don't use kde or gnome, and make it a point to keep their crap off my system - gnomevfs, for one, causes my firefox to crash when saving a file.... although I may have to splurge and grab k3b....

sarah31 · 2005-01-31 21:28:38

demonus wrote:

scarecrow - well I did not claim that GTK2 is useless, just wanted to check out new kde
what I meant is that there are just too many dependecies, what I am used to are small packages with just enough features built in, the really really necessary stuff and arch will not be fast anymore if you install that much software which you dont need
just look at pacman -Si xmms <-- what is esd needed for? do you know anyone using esd? if i wanted esd output then I could rebuild the package
and finally I dont say that its arch fault - the package dependency checking

The "point" is that with a desktop environment the tendency would be to enable more features than just the basics because maintainers would get more flac (sic) for not making as feature rich as possible than making bare bones and forcing people to go through potentially very long compiles of soem of those kde packages.

Generally I like bare bones but KDE is a royal pain to compile so I understand the reason to enable more at the start than not. You have the benefit of compiling that crud out or not installing it at all.

As for the xmms having esd as a dependency. It was previously compiled without arts because, believe it or not, more people did not want arts than did at some point. arts mean KDE dependencies (at least some) and for many folks arts is just plain overkill because it only adds multi source audio output the overall quality is still the same. Compiling arts out makes a small package small adding it in is doing EXACTLY what you are complaining about with KDE .... making a simple package bloated.

Regardless how much customization one wants is exactly the reason and benfit of ABS.

i3839 · 2005-01-31 21:49:26

sarah31 wrote:

The "point" is that with a desktop environment the tendency would be to enable more features than just the basics

Not only with desktop environments, it's everywhere. The problem is that features must be chosen at compile time, which is clearly insane when it can be done at runtime by dynamically loading the wanted libraries. Sure, it's slighly more work for the app coders, or a lot more of work, if their design isn't good. Only feature related compile time options should be which parts of the program should be build. Perhaps it helps to send bugreports to such app makers, like KDE and many other, I don't know.

scarecrow · 2005-01-31 22:10:58

Well, if you need "KDE" then you can just install kdebase, kdelibs and arts (plus a few dependencies) and have it running with little (?) bloat. The rest are optional, and can have various dependencies here and there, some seeming weird at first sight.
Moreover some strange audio-related deps come out of FartS which is not developed anymore, and the KDE team tries to get rid of at the most convenient time.

IceRAM · 2005-01-31 23:03:57

Maybe some of those deps could be transformed into makedepends?

But then... how would I know what to have function X fully loaded... I guess I don't mind having bloat installed, as long as I have plenty of space & my system IS stable.

dp · 2005-02-01 00:02:27

IceRAM wrote:

Maybe some of those deps could be transformed into makedepends?
But then... how would I know what to have function X fully loaded... I guess I don't mind having bloat installed, as long as I have plenty of space & my system IS stable.

the way some pkgs handle this is to provide post-install echo-ing ... but this can be really difficult with kde that contains lots of stuff ... maybe grouping them together? no idea, really

personally, i use almost every of these features, so i don't mind they are already installed with kde

sarah31 · 2005-02-01 09:10:41

i3839 wrote:

Not only with desktop environments, it's everywhere. The problem is that features must be chosen at compile time, which is clearly insane when it can be done at runtime by dynamically loading the wanted libraries. Sure, it's slighly more work for the app coders, or a lot more of work, if their design isn't good. Only feature related compile time options should be which parts of the program should be build. Perhaps it helps to send bugreports to such app makers, like KDE and many other, I don't know.

You are absolutely right. I firmly believe that most "complex" or feature rich apps should be modular in nature. That way if a user want a specific function the supporting library is all that would be required. This way all features could be "turned on" at compile time but only have the barest of dependencies.

dtw · 2005-02-01 09:31:03

i mention this to tpoqa once - i don't think i made a friend...

what about a deluxe and a standard version? LOL

Then we ONLY have to to choose which bits go which!

dp · 2005-02-01 11:44:53

dibblethewrecker wrote:

i mention this to tpoqa once - i don't think i made a friend...
what about a deluxe and a standard version? LOL
Then we ONLY have to to choose which bits go which!

who is going to maintain 2 versions of kde-releases? imagine that the size you download using pacman is first compiled and then uploaded by the maintainer

zezaz · 2005-02-01 12:58:57

demonus wrote:

do you know anyone using esd?

« Please allow me to introduce myself... » i am using esd

demonus wrote:

if i wanted esd output then I could rebuild the package

If you don't want it, you can rebuild it, thanks ABS. That said, i agree such dependencies should be implemented in a dynamic way.

phrakture · 2005-02-01 16:06:47

a) this really doesn't matter if you have:
i) a hard drive over 1GB
ii) a connection over dial up

b) why is this such a huge deal - think about it this way... would you rather have all your packages compiled with as little options as possible, or as many? would you like to download, say, abiword only to realize printing was disabled? (I don't know if this is an option, just guessing)... how about firefox... I could easily build you a barebones one, without extension support and all the stuff that makes firefox fun....

the thing is, people like features, and expect them to be there.... the extra dependancies, while there are about 30 packages or so, probably take up *maybe* 10 megs MAX.... who cares?

i3839 · 2005-02-01 16:39:58

The point is, if someone doesn't have a printer he doesn't want to install cups and whatnot, but he does want the app to run, which it refuses because certain libraries are missing and the app was linked at compile time.

The alternative would be a popup telling you that Abiword or whatever couldn't find cups, which is apparently needed for printing with Abiword. The point isn't that Abiword shouldn't be compiled with or without printing support, the point is that if it has printing support it still should run when cups isn't there. Another example, gnomevfs support in Firefox: Fine, if it's good then sure, add it, but Firefox should also run when Gnome isn't there and just continue doing its stuff. The problem is that it's always all or nothing, either a missing feature, or the feature and the dependencies required to even run the app.

The problem becomes worse when there's a cascading effect, with app A needing dep B, B needing C, etc. It's not just download once 10Mb extra, it's about downloading 10Mb all the time extra for every app, and not just to install something, but also keeping your system up to date becomes much harder when you have all kind of unneeded crap.

Dusty · 2005-02-01 16:48:03

phrakture wrote:

a) this really doesn't matter if you have:
i) a hard drive over 1GB
ii) a connection over dial up

But what if you fit in one of those categories? In one way, it almost wouldn't hurt to have a repository for "minimal" versions of some of the big packages.

the thing is, people like features, and expect them to be there.... the extra dependancies, while there are about 30 packages or so, probably take up *maybe* 10 megs MAX.... who cares?

10 megs on my dialup connection is a lot.

Dusty

phrakture · 2005-02-01 17:08:09

I agree that it's alot...

The thing is, with the state of affairs right now, I think the choice made was the best....
However, if one were to add a "optional-depends=('x' 'y' 'z')" to a PKGBUILD, you could have pacman request user input for these... i envision it like this:

pkgname=abiword
...
depends=('x-server')
optional-depends=('cups' 'figlet') #he he, figlet rules
...

I can't recall the syntax, so I'm shooting off the hip...

$ pacman -S abiword
:: Doing Pacman Stuff...
:: Here's another status message I can't recall...
Packages to install:
    abiword-X.Y
    Install [Y/n]?

Installing... abiword-X.Y....
abiword-X.Y can optionally use the following package:
   cups-A.B : CUPS_DESCRIPTION_HERE
   Install cups-A.B? [y/N]
...
...
abiword-X.Y can optionally use the following package:
   figlet-C.D : FIGLET_DESCRIPTION_HERE
   Install figlet-C.D? [y/N]

the problem with this is it requires a whole mess of user input... imaging this on that KDE spam above....

phrakture · 2005-02-01 17:09:39

hmmm reading my last post: you could provide 2 options similar to "--install-all-optional" and "--install-no-optional"

i3839 · 2005-02-01 17:28:55

It's a problem of the applications, and they should fix it, not the package maintainer. You can try to kludge around it with different install options and different package versions, but that doesn't fix the real problem: Non-modular, inflexible apps.

phrakture · 2005-02-01 18:12:24

i3839 wrote:

It's a problem of the applications, and they should fix it, not the package maintainer. You can try to kludge around it with different install options and different package versions, but that doesn't fix the real problem: Non-modular, inflexible apps.

yeah but it might be nice if the user knows he can optionally install some packages to get additionally features

demonus · 2005-02-01 19:38:39

true true, there would be no problem if programmers would provide us witch such features as for instance gkrellm developers
apps should use dynamical libraries or whatever you call them (say plugins) that enhance capabilities... but in the meantime as very few apps actually use plugins hence package mainaters should pay more attention how they build packages, like if there are only few people using some feature why not leave it out? like kdelibs require heimdal which is a package of libs for kerberos, well I personally dont know anyone using kerberos at home, do you?

ps. and now I know at least one person using esd output with xmms

phrakture · 2005-02-01 19:44:00

grue wrote:

Hmm. doesn't Pacman support anything along the lines of Debian's pseudo packages? a package "kde" should install kde and basic dependencies, while a package (for instance) "kde-desktop-environment" should install the 50gb or so of kde kudzu as well as kde.

yes... kde is a metapackage which installs kdelibs kdebase and a bunch of others.... i think gnome is the same way

Arch Linux

#1 2005-01-31 19:55:51

why so many dependencies?

#2 2005-01-31 20:14:37

Re: why so many dependencies?

#3 2005-01-31 20:15:12

Re: why so many dependencies?

#4 2005-01-31 20:17:45

Re: why so many dependencies?

#5 2005-01-31 20:40:09

Re: why so many dependencies?

#6 2005-01-31 20:40:45

Re: why so many dependencies?

#7 2005-01-31 20:44:27

Re: why so many dependencies?

#8 2005-01-31 21:28:38

Re: why so many dependencies?

#9 2005-01-31 21:49:26

Re: why so many dependencies?

#10 2005-01-31 22:10:58

Re: why so many dependencies?

#11 2005-01-31 23:03:57

Re: why so many dependencies?

#12 2005-02-01 00:02:27

Re: why so many dependencies?

#13 2005-02-01 09:10:41

Re: why so many dependencies?

#14 2005-02-01 09:31:03

Re: why so many dependencies?

#15 2005-02-01 11:44:53

Re: why so many dependencies?

#16 2005-02-01 12:58:57

Re: why so many dependencies?

#17 2005-02-01 16:06:47

Re: why so many dependencies?

#18 2005-02-01 16:39:58

Re: why so many dependencies?

#19 2005-02-01 16:48:03

Re: why so many dependencies?

#20 2005-02-01 17:08:09

Re: why so many dependencies?

#21 2005-02-01 17:09:39

Re: why so many dependencies?

#22 2005-02-01 17:28:55

Re: why so many dependencies?

#23 2005-02-01 18:12:24

Re: why so many dependencies?

#24 2005-02-01 19:38:39

Re: why so many dependencies?

#25 2005-02-01 19:44:00

Re: why so many dependencies?

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