10 years of linux, or how you can waste time slowly

Kpunkt · 2009-10-11 20:43:10

I think thats the point of a hobby: spending time on stuff you feel at home with. Humans need it for recreation and stuff. You can't learn 24/7 and if you learnt all the stuff you know about linux in 20% of the time, you would need another hobby. For sure!

fogobogo · 2009-10-11 22:44:57

lucky you. 10 years of linux. wish i would'nt have wasted so much time with windows. linux was a true eye opener to me. sorry though you spend so much time in the distro hopping/ theming loop.
my best advice is too learn real programming as soon as possible to create the WM that cant be themed

Lich · 2009-10-12 06:38:37

fogobogo wrote:

lucky you. 10 years of linux. wish i would'nt have wasted so much time with windows. linux was a true eye opener to me. sorry though you spend so much time in the distro hopping/ theming loop.
my best advice is too learn real programming as soon as possible to create the WM that cant be themed

Already do know "real" programming . I do C for years

Jimi · 2009-10-12 06:49:44

haha I actually saw someone quote this post and put it on overclock.net!

But yeah, bascially I learned this while fooling with ubuntu for a month then after a year of using a debian server, I decided I was going to try a linux desktop again. This time I chose arch, and decided to do 'right'. I use DWM to encourage me to learn C, and spend less time configuring stuff.

So basically I'm at the beginning of my journey, but I know what I want to avoid

Last edited by Jimi (2009-10-12 06:50:50)

greenfish · 2009-10-12 18:24:19

Lich wrote:

So, not that many of you would care, but this month I have a rather odd anniversary: it was 10 years ago that I laid eyes on my first Linux ditribution, and it was the thing that "started it all" for me. I was in the 9th grade, still using Windows, but I had access to a Redhat box, and I loved it. I remember playing Sokoban a lot on it, and I seem to remember Netscape. I also remember BitchX, but that was years after.
Any man would consider this a happy occasion, but I do not. Why? Because apart from some stuff that you learn as you go on, stuff that you need to learn in order to maintain your system in working condition, apart from that I feel like I've learned nothing. It's not Linux's fault, but my own, simply because I've spent years making sure that my box looks " bitchin' ", and spent alot less time actually learning what I was supposed to in the first place.
So, what do I have after 10 years?
I suck at firewall-ing, I'm certaintly more pro-efficient with Ubuntu's Firestarter frontend, or even with ZoneAlarm on Windows, than I am with, let's say, PF. I'm ashamed to say that I've always chosen the easy path: no open ports on my main box, rather than learning how to configure a secure machine.
I can make Gnome look 10 times better than Vista, but I don't think I've spent more than 10 minutes inside GConf. I have used ALL mainstream aswell as less known window managers, and learned how to configure them all. All this just to be back at my first love (used Kde/Gnome before): Ratpoison!
I have made atleast 1000 different font configurations, just to fall back to Monospace which I simply love (apart from the damn # beeing italic and the @ beeing horizontally squashed instead of a nice round shape!).
I have edited so many different xinitrc's and xorg.conf's that I could print an alternative Bible in 8 point font.
I have probably written so many Xdefaults color schemes that could easily fill an alternative New Testament in the forementioned Bible.
I have changed so many wallpapers that I could cover my city in A4 paper if I were to print them.
I have switched/reinstalled distros so many times that I could make a whole happy relationship out of the spare time I wasted.
I have read and written the word "theme" so many times that I could probably do a `find /` and i'll still get less characters.
And last but not least, this was not only a waste of time, but a waste of good health. I spent time in a hospital because of the lost nights, junk food and the freaking tons of Cola drinks.
Do I feel sad about these past years? Yes and no. Yes because I wasted them instead of learning, and no because I love *NIX and I don't see myself leaving "the scene" in the near future. All I need to do is stop doing useless stuff, and I beg of you to consider doing the same.
Don't sit for hours infront of your computer setting useless stuff up, like conky bars, window manager configs and the likes. All you have to gain from this is a few thanks and a few "WOW!'s" in the Screenshot's section. That's all! You may be as ignorant as to say that you do that because "you like a nice looking box", but Linux is all about the learning. Leave the configuring as your last "TODO", or as a first only if you intend to leave it like that, because you could end up like me, with nothing to show for after 10 years. Out of experience I can say that no matter how much work you put into a theme/style/setup, you will always find something in someone else's setup that you like, and start setting stuff up again. This never ends!
I'm not that idiotic as to think that you are ALL like me, maybe some of you actually do learn stuff and don't just set stuff up, but the rest, take my advice, and use `man` as often as you can.
What I have learned is programming. I started programming in the 4th grade on a Spectrum clone, but I started doing "hardcore" programming like..6 years ago. I'm only a medium sized coder, simply because, as with Linux, I've wasted time learning a lot of different programming languages instead of concentrating on one, then moving on. That's all that I (kinda) have to show for. Why "kinda"? Because none of my codes look "professional". Sure, they work, but they lack in the efficiency/optimisation department (have a look at BareWM...lolage on me!)
I don't exactly expect any replies, this was my way of "releasing the load", but feel free to say anything you like, be it advice or sharing your own experiences.

Uh?????

Unless your trade is coding i'd say trying to learn "coding" for 10 years is a gigantic waste of life.

Don't sit for hours infront of your computer setting useless stuff up, like conky bars, window manager configs and the likes. All you have to gain from this is a few thanks and a few "WOW!'s" in the Screenshot's section. That's all! You may be as ignorant as to say that you do that because "you like a nice looking box", but Linux is all about the learning. Leave the configuring as your last "TODO", or as a first only if you intend to leave it like that, because you could end up like me, with nothing to show for after 10 years.

I rather spend 5 hours setting up a nice looking DE then trying to understand how the kernel schedules it's memory access

Again what is this "show" thing you keep talking about? Are you working 8 hours per day coding applications? If so I fully support your argument.

I'm a desktop/power user I honestly could care less about programming, i'll leave that to the devs instead. Not everyone want's to dig deep into the sap of the kernel, not everyone cares about compiling everything from scratch just because starring at rolling text makes you smart.

I'm gonna spend 2 hours now setting up this new firefox build and it's all eye candy related

Sorry for my spelling guys I haven't had much sleep (4 hours) yesterday.

EDIT: I enjoed reading your "rant" sir, hope you feel better now

Lich · 2009-10-12 18:47:52

@greenfish: By learning Linux I did not mean learning how to program. Programming for me is a hobby. I meant learning about Linux in general, but on a more advanced level: configuration of firewalls, security stuff, learn how init scripts work stuff like that. I've had a lot of problems over the years that got fixed by asking others. I just wish that after 10 years I could solve those problems myself. I can to some extent, but sometimes I'm just lost. That's what I want to avoid from now on. I didn't waste time learning how to program for 10 years. You missread my post. I've been programming long before my switch to Linux.
If you like configuring your DE for 5 hours, fine..do what you will. You will get bored of it at some point and come to the same conclusion that I did: that it was time wasted, and you got exactly NOTHING in return

Last edited by Lich (2009-10-12 18:51:51)

Jimi · 2009-10-12 22:38:13

Lich have you ever spent time on linux servers? No GUI = no configuration time wasted.
Basically everything you just said in the above post, I learned (the basics of) mostly from running a debian server for around a year.

Last edited by Jimi (2009-10-12 22:39:08)

Lich · 2009-10-13 05:51:04

Jimi wrote:

Lich have you ever spent time on linux servers? No GUI = no configuration time wasted.
Basically everything you just said in the above post, I learned (the basics of) mostly from running a debian server for around a year.

I do run an OpenBSD server, was ubuntu server and freebsd before that, so I'm messing around with that now.

spupy · 2009-10-13 19:46:43

I'm at almost 3 years of using Linux, and I feel exactly like OP. I really like tinkering with linux, writing pointless scripts, diving the source code of obscure programs, spending so much time aligning conky and icons and stuff. I really like it, but sometimes I feel it is wasted time I could have used for something else.
I guess this is what you call a hobby.

JohannesSM64 · 2009-10-14 13:54:40

I don't spend much time on theming and such, but I do waste an awful amount of time trying to find the best terminal emulator, the best browser, the best mail client, the best music player and so on.
Currently I'm jumping between terminal emulators. I always get some issues, or just something I don't like. Often related to window titles. Argh.

Last edited by JohannesSM64 (2009-10-14 13:55:16)

Lich · 2009-10-14 14:01:53

err, most if not all terminal emulators allow you to set your window title on the fly. bad reason to switch te's

greenfish · 2009-10-14 17:37:46

Lich wrote:

@greenfish: By learning Linux I did not mean learning how to program. Programming for me is a hobby. I meant learning about Linux in general, but on a more advanced level: configuration of firewalls, security stuff, learn how init scripts work stuff like that. I've had a lot of problems over the years that got fixed by asking others. I just wish that after 10 years I could solve those problems myself. I can to some extent, but sometimes I'm just lost. That's what I want to avoid from now on. I didn't waste time learning how to program for 10 years. You missread my post. I've been programming long before my switch to Linux.
If you like configuring your DE for 5 hours, fine..do what you will. You will get bored of it at some point and come to the same conclusion that I did: that it was time wasted, and you got exactly NOTHING in return

I see, obviously a misundestanding on my part

Well good luck to you sir!

JohannesSM64 · 2009-10-14 18:16:08

Lich wrote:

err, most if not all terminal emulators allow you to set your window title on the fly. bad reason to switch te's

No, I mean actual problems, like not being able to put print -Pn "\e]0;%n@%m\a" in my .zshrc and have it work properly, and bugs on exiting vim. I've had unicode problems in GNOME Terminal, urxvt lacks features, Terminator (the Jessie's Software one) has some UI bugs..
Anyway, that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Last edited by JohannesSM64 (2009-10-14 18:36:21)

cebru · 2009-10-14 18:42:25

Good, interesting read. Some of what you say used to apply to me. Wasting time on useless things. That's why I started with Arch.

The amount of time I used to spend on installing a distribution, configure it to perfection, then a new version gets released and the process would start over. Running into annoying bugs that would only get fixed in the next scheduled release would have me test out other distributions, only to have history repeat itself.

With Arch I don't have to reinstall my distribution every X months/years and I know bug fixes and new features will come when they are ready. I find myself much more productive now.

madalu · 2009-10-14 19:15:47

Well all I can say here is that Linux is my hobby, and that messing around with an archlinux is a nice way to relax.

I wouldn't consider that wasted time (unless you're a Puritan-type who considers all recreational activities wasted time).

Besides, ever since I discovered Linux and my computer *hobby* (b/c that's what it is), I've pretty much stopped watching TV. I wouldn't consider that a bad trade off.

Last edited by madalu (2009-10-14 19:17:23)

Lich · 2009-10-15 08:22:29

madalu, I think I'm saying this for the third time: I consider a waste of time only the useless stuff I did like UI setups, not the time spent on learning linux stuff

MarcosRoriz · 2009-10-25 03:15:00

I feel like you somehow... but I settled back to my main objetives in time, I lost only 2 years LOL.

I'm using gnu/linux for about [2-5~3] years fulltime, before I had ocasioned used. And mainly I did a lot of distro hopping and some switches between DE [gnome->kde->gnome->....->kde]. Finally about [6-8] months ago, I understand that I was wasting my time tweaking apps and distro hopping. I settled down onto KDE and I can say that I want more an UbuArch , which is my arch stuff 'stable'. Yes, I fear arch update =3. Now, I dont care what I'm running down there (SO), I care more about aprimorating my Java skills, specially for web and frameworks, and learning real Linux stuff. So basically right know I don't give a fuck about what distro I'm using, in my job I use ubuntu, only about what I'm doing on top of it.

The most close to tweaking/theming I do today, is changing desktop wallpaper and put a gnome theme that looks like my kde theme (default).

So basically after I found these I dont do that anymore .

Anyway, I trully understand your point of view Lich

rwd · 2009-10-25 09:45:46

I am more productive with a customized setup, so for me the tweaking is kind of a investment. I know for certain that on my Windows XP work pc I'm losing time because of stupid default settings, and things that can't even be changed by design.

Last edited by rwd (2009-10-25 09:46:20)

app4des · 2009-10-25 20:00:53

That is a very nice discussion here, Linux (whatever distro) can be a very useful tool for serving some needs, but it can also be a great useless time waster that can easily eat parts of your life for no reason.

After years of using linux (btw I was an archlinux user at one time, I am not ever coming back though), I think the real uses of linux are only for servers. Serious non-server use can only be utilized by large companies (in mobile phones and very specific workstations and most times on non-x86 architectures).

Using any form of Linux as a desktop in my opinion "is" a waste of time. Except from some really rare occasions (I hope most people using linux belong there), Using Windows or maybe Mac is more productive. They serve more desktop needs, and get the job done faster and actually in the long term, come out cheaper (if time has relation to money).

So, in my case, the only time that I became happy with the use of linux (and I felt productive and not wasting time) was when I put back windows on all the desktop machines, and put linux on every server I work on.

Don't be tricked by recent "Rise of Linux on Desktop" stuff. It is just that most people only need an "Internet Browser" nowadays for all their desktop needs (youtube, facebook, eradio, blogging, basic office suite needs), and Linux happens to have good support for Firefox.

As for the distro hopping problem (Ignoring anything desktop for reasons stated above):

You want to get the job done fast with as few problems as possible: Debian

You want to get the job done fast with as few problems as possible but debian has problems with your hardware: Ubuntu

You want to do something, that is too much of a hassle (too many workarounds) or impossible to achieve with debian or ubuntu: Gentoo

Last edited by app4des (2009-10-25 20:03:56)

gog · 2009-10-25 22:31:54

...so linux isn't viable for desktop. that's a huge claim and you haven't really explained why.

MarcosRoriz · 2009-10-25 23:06:48

app4des wrote:

That is a very nice discussion here, Linux (whatever distro) can be a very useful tool for serving some needs, but it can also be a great useless time waster that can easily eat parts of your life for no reason.
After years of using linux (btw I was an archlinux user at one time, I am not ever coming back though), I think the real uses of linux are only for servers. Serious non-server use can only be utilized by large companies (in mobile phones and very specific workstations and most times on non-x86 architectures).
Using any form of Linux as a desktop in my opinion "is" a waste of time. Except from some really rare occasions (I hope most people using linux belong there), Using Windows or maybe Mac is more productive. They serve more desktop needs, and get the job done faster and actually in the long term, come out cheaper (if time has relation to money).
So, in my case, the only time that I became happy with the use of linux (and I felt productive and not wasting time) was when I put back windows on all the desktop machines, and put linux on every server I work on.
Don't be tricked by recent "Rise of Linux on Desktop" stuff. It is just that most people only need an "Internet Browser" nowadays for all their desktop needs (youtube, facebook, eradio, blogging, basic office suite needs), and Linux happens to have good support for Firefox.
As for the distro hopping problem (Ignoring anything desktop for reasons stated above):
You want to get the job done fast with as few problems as possible: Debian
You want to get the job done fast with as few problems as possible but debian has problems with your hardware: Ubuntu
You want to do something, that is too much of a hassle (too many workarounds) or impossible to achieve with debian or ubuntu: Gentoo

I don't think Linux is viable to normal users. But it's viable to power users. Windows is very good, adding cygwin makes equal to Linux/*BSD/*Solaris. However I miss some stuff from Linux there, such as:
* I think Windows User permission is confusing. Linux is simpler.
* I'm developing a middleware, and the middleware will run on top of Linux. So i basically need linux to develop it.
* I configure my os with shortcuts made by me that makes my life easier by doing my job faster.

However, Linux sucks at:
* Video (Specially on webcams...)
* Games
* Setting up a platform easier.

I once used only Linux but right now I dont care a lot about the OS that I'm running. I care more about the app that I'm developing. And yes, Windows + Cygwin is a Winner to power users. Right now one of the things that keeps me on Linux is:
* I want to learn more about the infrastructure of the OS, so I can take that knowledge to my apps.
* Like I said, I'm developing an dtv middleware (Ginga) that will run on top of Linux, so we're using Linux as a dev platform
* My Linux vicious apps, that can easily exists on Windows.

I miss windows games and decent video apps (skype for linux = 2.1, for win= 4.1, LOL) on Linux.

Summing all up:
* In my opinion (IMO), linux is not viable to NORMAL/COMMON users.
* IMO, linux is viable to developers, specially if you're developing for open source. However if you're developing for a proprietary platform, there's a lot great proprietary tools for closed source that dont exist on linux, Visual Studio, .NET... (Mono is cool~, but Visual Studio is THE IDE for .NET) on propietary platforms.
* Linux rocks onto Servers. No explanation needed.

Let the flame start!

Last edited by MarcosRoriz (2009-10-25 23:08:59)

tlvb · 2009-10-25 23:12:53

app4des wrote:

It is just that most people only need an "Internet Browser" nowadays for all their desktop needs (youtube, facebook, eradio, blogging, basic office suite needs), and Linux happens to have good support for Firefox.

(emphasis mine)
Do you mean that peoples desktop computing needs has dimnished with time?
Also, as I get pissed off when people say "linux has poor flash support", I guess I'll have to be consistent: It is firefox that supports linux, in this case.

Anikom15 · 2009-10-26 00:11:30

MarcosRoriz wrote:

...
However, Linux sucks at:
* Video (Specially on webcams...)
* Games
* Setting up a platform easier.
...

So Linux sucks at running proprietry programs and hardware? Who would've thought!?

MarcosRoriz · 2009-10-26 00:59:06

Anikom15 wrote:

MarcosRoriz wrote:
...
However, Linux sucks at:
* Video (Specially on webcams...)
* Games
* Setting up a platform easier.
...
So Linux sucks at running proprietry programs and hardware? Who would've thought!?

I think I mispassed my idea...
I said that linux still sucks at some common desktop apps, (for example, there is no free decent video app, Ekiga sucks).
There is not enough good free games (apart from fps, which is decently represented with the excelents Nexuiz, OpenArena and UrbanTerror). Sometimes an initial config takes a lot of time depending on the distro you are using. But I think I'm wrong on this last affirmation, usually a Windows Platform config Takes a lot more time than an *unix.

app4des · 2009-10-26 07:55:50

tlvb wrote:

app4des wrote:
It is just that most people only need an "Internet Browser" nowadays for all their desktop needs (youtube, facebook, eradio, blogging, basic office suite needs), and Linux happens to have good support for Firefox.
(emphasis mine)
Do you mean that peoples desktop computing needs has dimnished with time?
Also, as I get pissed off when people say "linux has poor flash support", I guess I'll have to be consistent: It is firefox that supports linux, in this case.

No I mean that the internet browser use has evolved, with the rise of web 2.0, ajax, higher bandwidth connections, extreme content sites (youtube, web video, web photo albums), and communication platforms (facebook, that also works like a messenger for example) and also some advanced flash/java applications and games, have replaced many "standard" desktop applications that we used to compare between Windows and Linux. For many people this stuff are enough for their everyday work/entertainment and linux finally can work for them as the only requirement for those is firefox and flash.

However this can't be considered a "win" for linux. Just the requirements generally has been simplified and gotten bloated inside the browser and I predict that the OS will not matter that much in the future.

Arch Linux

#51 2009-10-11 20:43:10

Re: 10 years of linux, or how you can waste time slowly

#52 2009-10-11 22:44:57

Re: 10 years of linux, or how you can waste time slowly

#53 2009-10-12 06:38:37

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#54 2009-10-12 06:49:44

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#57 2009-10-12 22:38:13

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#58 2009-10-13 05:51:04

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#59 2009-10-13 19:46:43

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#60 2009-10-14 13:54:40

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#61 2009-10-14 14:01:53

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#62 2009-10-14 17:37:46

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#64 2009-10-14 18:42:25

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#65 2009-10-14 19:15:47

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#66 2009-10-15 08:22:29

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#67 2009-10-25 03:15:00

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#68 2009-10-25 09:45:46

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#69 2009-10-25 20:00:53

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#70 2009-10-25 22:31:54

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#71 2009-10-25 23:06:48

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#72 2009-10-25 23:12:53

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#73 2009-10-26 00:11:30

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#74 2009-10-26 00:59:06

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#75 2009-10-26 07:55:50

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