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#26 2009-09-24 02:07:05

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Thanks ngoonee, that did the trick.  I recompiled that -ice package as you posted above and now Rosegarden doesn't complain about anything so surely, now, I have a working RT kernel wink.
Thanks a bunch!


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#27 2009-09-24 05:09:50

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

You're welcome, and welcome to Arch.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
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#28 2009-09-24 11:57:13

iceman81
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From: Cambridge
Registered: 2007-07-25
Posts: 59
Website

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

ngoonee wrote:

You're welcome, and welcome to Arch.

Welcome to the -ice kernel too big_smile

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#29 2009-09-24 12:21:42

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

iceman81 wrote:
ngoonee wrote:

You're welcome, and welcome to Arch.

Welcome to the -ice kernel too big_smile

Thanks.  I have to say Arch is just blowing me away.  I've used Linux for 10 years, tried almost any distribution you can name and nothing has come close to Arch.  I still can't seem to get my head around the fact that I can record music in Ardour, interfacing Jamin & Rosegarden while browsing a dozen pages in Firefox with a kernel compiling in the background with no xruns whatsoever on the "standard", non-rt kernel!?  WTF!?  That's not possible, but I'm doing it with no xruns whatsoever!  Even with the "audio-centric" distributions I've used that just isn't happening, even with a RT kernel much less a standard one!  I've tried the latest Ubuntu Studio, 64Studio & Fedora11/PlanetCCRMA and they can't even begin to touch what I've got Arch doing.  I want to say it's because Arch just has the latest everything but I really don't think the kernel has changed "that" much in the last .XX release.  Ubuntu & Fedora11 have 2.6.2X kernels I think so it shouldn't be that much of a difference.  The performance I'm getting in Arch is night/day different than anything else I've tried.
All I'm going to say is Arch is the final piece to a puzzle I've been working for 10 years.  I prefer *nix (Linux in particular) to anything else I've ever used and I'm going to use Linux even if I had to fight it daily.  Thankfully with Arch I don't have to.  Arch is without a doubt the best distribution of Linux I've ever seen.  Thanks to everyone involed in Arch.


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#30 2009-09-27 16:22:04

schivmeister
Developer/TU
From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Zaephen: Many of us here consider wget $aurpkgurl && cd $aurpkg && makepkg -ci as easy as pacman -S $pkg. People have gone further with yaourt -S $aurpkg (or something), so that may be what you're looking for.

It may not have been easy for you because the first thing you stumbled upon was a third-party repo (read: not supported here, but at http://forums.archaudio.org/ and http://bugs.archaudio.org/ ), and not AUR. So you sort of missed out on the fun before the storm (eh..?).

It's unfortunate that nobody has built an x86_64 version of the nvidia-rt package at that repo, but we'll nag someone to do it so you can stick with pacman -S $pkgname and not have to deal with rebuilds everytime big_smile

ngoonee wrote:

Zaephen, there's a problem with the kernel26rt PKGBUILD which prevents nvidia modules from building correctly. I actually sent in a modified PKGBUILD which fixed it, but the package itself still has the old one.

Nope, it was fixed as soon as the header issues were confirmed for kernel26. From the changelog:

19 Jun 2009

    List of differences from archlinux/core/kernel26:

        - Timer frequency set to 1000HZ
        - Disabled APM (default in x86_64)
        - Enabled HPET
        - Included Sequencer dummy client module
        - Removed staging drivers *

        * The comedi drivers seem to have an issue with
          the rcupreempt stuff. As the staging drivers
          are merely development inclusions, it's better
          to omit them altogether. If you want to develop
          rather than use this kernel for realtime work,
          kernel26 would be a better bet.

    Remarks:

        Previously not all include directories were needed to
        build external modules. Drivers like nvidia and vmware
        seem to depend on some headers in there. Anyone
        concerned about this can check with the kernel devs
        upstream. All we care about is that the kernel, along
        with external modules, build and work as expected.
        You may also take a look at the comments in the PKGBUILD
        for the Arch bug report link(s).

But latest kernel + rt + nvidia is problematic yet again =/

One should always try the stock kernel first. 1000HZ timer may be useful for MIDI. Other than that, not much difference because a lot of the rt stuff has been merged in mainline to this day.

And then now we have BFS tongue

edit: nevermind, patch found at http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.rt.user/5065 and it builds fine once again wink

Last edited by schivmeister (2009-09-27 17:22:10)


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

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#31 2009-09-27 17:16:12

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

schivmeister wrote:

But latest kernel + rt + nvidia is problematic yet again =/

One should always try the stock kernel first. 1000HZ timer may be useful for MIDI. Other than that, not much difference because a lot of the rt stuff has been merged in mainline to this day.

And then now we have BFS tongue

edit: nevermind, patch found at http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.rt.user/5065 and it builds fine once again wink

Based on that I wrote the patch for nvidia-beta-ice-rt, its in the AUR. I only ever use nvidia-beta due to my card being relatively new (and problems I had with the 185 series). I should actually forward that patch back to the RT list, but I'm scared to post there....

schivmeister, are you still planning on updating kernel26rt? I'm running the kernel26-ice 2.6.31 with the RT patchset, and it seems to work fine.

If you would like to orphan kernel26rt I'd update it with a PKGBUILD based on the kernel26-ice one (with iceman81's permission of course).


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
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#32 2009-09-27 17:29:10

schivmeister
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From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Yep, will update it.

Thanks for the reminder that there is such thing as an nvidia-beta yikes

Nope, I'm keeping in line with [core], so only rt and relevant patches get in. As such, both kernels serve different users. I will be adding the "iced rt" kernel to archaudio as well, alongside one with the bfs patch smile


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

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#33 2009-09-27 17:46:13

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Thanks schivmeister.  Err, Zaephen -> Jamie now wink.
Thanks also ngoonee and all others in this thread for all the help.
I used yaourt to install the -ice kernel with RT patches and it was really no problem.  As it is right now, I'm running the stock Arch kernel and the -ice kernel with RT patches for audio work.  No, and I mean "no" problems with either kernel.  Actually, no problems with Arch in general.  I'm truly sold on Arch.  For me it's what a Linux distribution "should" be.


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#34 2009-09-27 17:55:04

schivmeister
Developer/TU
From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Jamie: None of us knows what "problem" means tongue

I've received yet another confirmation that the bfs patch is working wonders for a realtime audio workstation. Further negates the need for the rt patch (since it's a drop-in replacement).


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

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#35 2009-09-27 18:43:34

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

I'm not familar with the bfs kernel.  I'll give it a look as I do a lot of audio recording wink.


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#36 2009-09-27 22:09:02

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

schivmeister wrote:

Jamie: None of us knows what "problem" means tongue

I do. Its when someone's using Windows and asking me "why does it get slower every week?"

schivmeister wrote:

I've received yet another confirmation that the bfs patch is working wonders for a realtime audio workstation. Further negates the need for the rt patch (since it's a drop-in replacement).

Doesn't seem logical that BFS would help. Could you lead me to where you're getting this info?


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
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#37 2009-09-28 09:00:52

schivmeister
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From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Ahh, the "confirmation" is by the user JackWinter. And before that, a number of people across the net have been talking about it. The first I came across: http://lwn.net/Articles/350820/

And a bit of my logic on why this can be a "drop-in replacement":

http://lwn.net/Articles/146861/

The RT kernel came about to address preemption on a wider scale in the Linux kernel. Most of it is largely dependent on the scheduler, and for a very long time the main attributes of realtime has been based off of the default (CFS).

What Colivas did a long time ago (which indirectly led to CFS), and has now come back to revive, is the idea of a better scheduler for the desktop. This no longer would warrant a separate patch to allow lower latency/greater preemption because it addresses a bulk of those issues.

Where in an RT-patched kernel it's SCHED_RR, in a BFS-patched kernel it's SCHED_ISO. This gives more importance to desktop users, and when needed, elevates scheduling priority. Hence, "does not scale". Meaning, "f**k 4096 processors and MySQL" big_smile


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

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#38 2009-09-28 10:49:25

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Ah, cool. I just compiled BFS this morning, and jack runs just fine! No noticeable performance difference from 'real' RT.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
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#39 2009-09-28 15:18:14

schivmeister
Developer/TU
From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Just spoke in #ck and confirmed that my logic is somewhat flawed! But at the same time, I also confirmed that it's not wrong to say that due to the better implementation of scheduling, low-latency tasks will indirectly appear to improve as well (although rt can be jokingly referred to as anti-scheduling). That is mainly because fundamental problems with the linux kernel with regards to desktop performance is improved, and for multimedia realtime this is enough.

So what we see here is a better "soft realtime" implementation. May not be suitable for, eg. lasers. For the average studio (and not an army of jconv research machines), it should "perform" as well as "hard realtime" (previously multimedia users only had the -rt option, which wasn't designed with audio in mind but for eg. embedded devices).

One quote:

[23:03] <Diablo-D3> bfs has realtime-compatible latencies
[23:03] <Diablo-D3> iso'ed processes on bfs generally defeats the entire point of having rt
[23:03] <mb_> Diablo-D3: It doesn't change interrupt and spinlock latencies.
[23:03] <Diablo-D3> no it doesnt
[23:03] <Diablo-D3> but for something like, say, daft punk discovering linux, its good enough
[23:04] <Diablo-D3> if I was building a cruise missile, I wouldnt be using linux to begin with.


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

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#40 2009-10-11 16:12:37

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

If I can hit you guys up for a little more help (I am still an Arch noob wink).

First let me say as in my last few posts, I had kernel 2.30 & kernel 2.31-ice installed and working perfectly.  Why couldn't I just leave it alone?! tongue  Anyway, I saw that kernel 2.31 was releases when I did a "pacman -Syu" so I said yes.  Of course it killed my nvidia-beta for that kernel, that is, kernel 2.31 doesn't work.  My -ice RT kernel was still working however.  So, not remembering all I did to get everything working I did "yaourt -S nvidia-beta".  2.31 still wouldn't work.  So I did "yaourt -S nvidia-utils-beta" and that worked for 2.31 big_smile.  However, now when I tried to boot into my previously working -ice RT kernel, it's no longer working.  I tried to "yaourt -S nvidia-utils-beta", still didn't work.  Then I tried to "yaourt -S nvidia-beta" but that won't build for some reason.
Any ideas?  I'm sure I'm doing something simple wrong I'm just missing it.


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#41 2009-10-11 19:22:30

schivmeister
Developer/TU
From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Could you try building it from AUR? It should work. Use ngonee's *-beta package for the ice kernel.

And btw archaudio now has a kernel26daw (x86_64 confirmed to work well by svoufff), which is BFS. But no nvidia-beta for any of the kernels yet.

Last edited by schivmeister (2009-10-11 19:22:56)


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

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#42 2009-10-11 20:18:23

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

schivmeister wrote:

Could you try building it from AUR? It should work. Use ngonee's *-beta package for the ice kernel.

And btw archaudio now has a kernel26daw (x86_64 confirmed to work well by svoufff), which is BFS. But no nvidia-beta for any of the kernels yet.

Thanks a bunch schivmeister!  It worked like a charm.  Now that you mention it, I think I did use that package before when I had everything working, I just forgot.  I now have a working kernel 2.31 & kernel 2.31-ice RT with nvidia-beta for both wink.


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#43 2009-10-12 01:00:25

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

nvidia-beta compiles fine against stock BFS (and my BFS-ice hybrid). Just mentioning.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
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#44 2009-10-12 01:16:47

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

ngoonee wrote:

nvidia-beta compiles fine against stock BFS (and my BFS-ice hybrid). Just mentioning.

Thanks ngoonee.  I have the stock 2.6.31 & -ice RT kernels working now so I think I'll just leave things alone for a bit and try to get some work done wink.
I say that but I'll probably be "tinkering" with something tomorrow big_smile!


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#45 2009-10-12 02:05:10

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Jamie wrote:
ngoonee wrote:

nvidia-beta compiles fine against stock BFS (and my BFS-ice hybrid). Just mentioning.

Thanks ngoonee.  I have the stock 2.6.31 & -ice RT kernels working now so I think I'll just leave things alone for a bit and try to get some work done wink.
I say that but I'll probably be "tinkering" with something tomorrow big_smile!

Some shameless plugging, I've also got a nvidia-beta-all package which compiles the nvidia-beta drivers for all current kernels. You'll need to modify the name of the patch to fit your kernel though. Mention it because if you're playing around with kernels you may appreciate that.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
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#46 2009-10-12 02:23:34

Jamie
Member
From: United States
Registered: 2009-09-21
Posts: 107

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

Thanks ngoonee, I'll keep that in mind when I start playing around with kernels again wink.
I'm loving Arch, just still getting used to the "Arch way" cool.


Thanks,
Jamie

archlinux x86_64

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#47 2009-11-02 03:45:26

fplolz
Member
Registered: 2009-08-15
Posts: 47

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

hello (: i am rather new to arch linux
and yes i am loving Arch alot

i wanted to try out a rt kernel ...so yea..
got it on...the ice kernel
but that caused many problems with the nvidia driver...
Is there another driver i should use for the rt kernel?
Cause games i run hangs when using the default nvidia driver with rt kernel
Than, i heard of bfs
So i am trying the bfs patch on reading that it could be a passible substitue for rt ..( and nvidia drivers doesnt go well with rt somehow...i think :x)

oh yes could i ask a question...is PAE enable by default on the ice kernel?
if not , how do i enable it ...( i am very very new to all this)

P.s ..some how the rt patch failed
patching file virt/kvm/kvm_main.c
==> ERROR: Build Failed.
    Aborting...

Last edited by fplolz (2009-11-02 04:07:00)

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#48 2009-11-02 05:48:23

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: [SOLVED] RT Kernel & Nvidia Drivers

fplolz, go create your own thread, and don't mix every single issue you're getting into someone else's thread. One thread per issue please. And if you haven't done your research (and 'hearing about bfs' doesn't count), you're not going to get much response.

You're very very new, obviously. So you need to search and read, very very much.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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