Suggestions to improve Beginners Guide

corsakh · 2009-11-13 04:51:11

Sup,

I am a total newb so I guess I'd share some difficulties that I encountered during installation that could be easily avoided.

1) Put the Beginners Guide on the ISO. I don't have a second computer. So I had to print out a 63 page manuscript + GNOME instructions that I am likely to ever use once. Thats a total waste of paper and time.

2) The first mirror that I selected was down. I waited, and waited, and waited. I did not know what to do, so I rebooted. Please tell us what to do in this situation.

3) I accidentally pressed ctrl-z while typing in vi. I don't know how to get it back so I had to reboot Now, thats not exactly Arch problem but since its a Beginners Guide, many people using it are coming from Windows where ctrl-z is very widely used in text editing, but it has a completely undesired effect on Linux systems. I'm positive I am not the only one who did this.

4) Its not entirely clear what should be put into the mkinitcpio.conf file. I tried adding base and udev modules to the MODULE string, but ended up with errors on image creation.

5) Again, since its a Beginners Guide and many people are coming from Windows, I think its important to provide basic instructions for dual boot. I am basically now stuck changing disk order in BIOS until I figure out how to edit the Grub configuration correctly.

On a bright side, after all this I can now install Arch in about 10 minutes

Last edited by corsakh (2009-11-13 04:56:28)

jasonwryan · 2009-11-13 05:31:35

Welcome to Arch!

The documentation is excellent -- which isn't to say it can't be improved...

I found that printing out the Guide is a good idea - it means you tend to read (and reread) the whole document. From memory, the installer instructions also point out that the Guide is on the iso, and you can open it in another terminal.

Similarly, with mkinitcpio - the Guide says that editing this file is unnecessary at this point - the information is provided by way of explanation.

There is a very thorough section on the wiki on dual booting [http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Win … _Dual_Boot] I wouldn't see this as part of the Guide as it is (a) more advanced, and (b) would duplicate existing info.

As for the vi thing - I thought you had an option to choose nano, but I may have recalled that incorrectly.

Gen2ly · 2009-11-13 05:51:01

I agree, good tips... mostly.

1) Put the Beginners Guide on the ISO...

That's kinda an awkward thing to do because the guide is always getting updated. My opinion is that the text browser 'links' should be on the iso and be even nicer if it's home page was the BG.

The official install guide in on the ISO (if I remember correctly) but I don't remember anything pointing me to it the first time I installed (perhaps I just missed it).

2) The first mirror that I selected was down. I waited, and waited, and waited. I did not know what to do, so I rebooted. Please tell us what to do in this situation.

Nod.

3) I accidentally pressed ctrl-z while typing in vi...

Arch isn't really for new people. My generic assumption is, if you can use vi, you might be able to install Arch .

4) Its not entirely clear what should be put into the mkinitcpio.conf file. I tried adding base and udev modules to the MODULE string, but ended up with errors on image creation.

Agreed, it wasn't apparent to me either. I knew vaguely what it was, editing it kinda frightened me .

5) Again, since its a Beginners Guide and many people are coming from Windows...

Uh, not really. From what I've read, most new users are (for the most part) people who've been around the Linux landscape a bit. Even with a veteran Windows user, I don't know if I'd recommend Arch to him.

... I think its important to provide basic instructions for dual boot. I am basically now stuck changing disk order in BIOS until I figure out how to edit the Grub configuration correctly.

Get an A for ingenuity. Grub has got a different syntax and it's a bit weird IMH. Not sure what can be done about this. Here's my menu.lst it is helps: http://pastebin.com/m7594dba7

Anyways, congrats on your install. If you are a Windows user that got this running - props!

anonymous_user · 2009-11-13 07:27:57

corsakh wrote:

2) The first mirror that I selected was down. I waited, and waited, and waited. I did not know what to do, so I rebooted. Please tell us what to do in this situation.

Good idea.

For setting up mirrors, I would suggest uncommenting multiple mirrors so if one fails, pacman can try another.

corsakh wrote:

3) I accidentally pressed ctrl-z while typing in vi. I don't know how to get it back so I had to reboot Now, thats not exactly Arch problem but since its a Beginners Guide, many people using it are coming from Windows where ctrl-z is very widely used in text editing, but it has a completely undesired effect on Linux systems. I'm positive I am not the only one who did this.

Afaik, Arch (the Core ISO at least) gives you a choice between nano, joe's own editor, and vim.

berbae · 2009-11-13 14:23:35

I accidentally pressed ctrl-z while typing in vi. I don't know how to get it back so I had to reboot

You just stop the process and to restart it you can type that command :

fg

which means foreground (there is also bg for placing the processing in background).
Read 'man bash' the "Job control" section.
So it is not related to the editor choice.

skanky · 2009-11-13 14:35:26

corsakh wrote:

1) Put the Beginners Guide on the ISO. I don't have a second computer. So I had to print out a 63 page manuscript + GNOME instructions that I am likely to ever use once. Thats a total waste of paper and time.

It might be worth pointing people to the Arch Linux Handbook in the Guide?

hatten · 2009-11-13 15:00:03

The 2009.08 install file gives you the option of nano, vi and joe's editor.
I remember that it was vi because i had to nano when there was no vimmed vi.

ottis · 2009-11-13 16:54:41

corsakh wrote:

1) Put the Beginners Guide on the ISO. I don't have a second computer. So I had to print out a 63 page manuscript + GNOME instructions that I am likely to ever use once. Thats a total waste of paper and time.

I agree. Also, elinks instead of links.

corsakh wrote:

2) The first mirror that I selected was down. I waited, and waited, and waited. I did not know what to do, so I rebooted. Please tell us what to do in this situation.

I agree.

corsakh wrote:

3) I accidentally pressed ctrl-z while typing in vi. I don't know how to get it back so I had to reboot Now, thats not exactly Arch problem but since its a Beginners Guide, many people using it are coming from Windows where ctrl-z is very widely used in text editing, but it has a completely undesired effect on Linux systems. I'm positive I am not the only one who did this.

Maybe the beginners guide should mention that nano is recommended. In all fairness, setup does say that vi is advanced.

corsakh wrote:

4) Its not entirely clear what should be put into the mkinitcpio.conf file. I tried adding base and udev modules to the MODULE string, but ended up with errors on image creation.

The guide explained this.

corsakh wrote:

5) Again, since its a Beginners Guide and many people are coming from Windows, I think its important to provide basic instructions for dual boot. I am basically now stuck changing disk order in BIOS until I figure out how to edit the Grub configuration correctly.

Maybe it should link to one of the dual boot articles. Not too sure about including it there.

crouse · 2009-11-14 03:58:30

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_Linux

What is Arch Linux?
Arch Linux is an independently developed i686/x86-64 community distribution, based on a rolling-release model and targeted at competent GNU/Linux users which offers large binary repositories and excellent package management as well as a ports-like packaging system.

That said, me, I have a SLAX disk ..... ALWAYS. If I need to do something on the net when my computer is not in a useable state, I pop in my SLAX disk and do whatever I need to. Easy Peasy.
However, since I have 5 computers.....this is rarely necc. for me to do, but sometimes when I'm offsite at a customers only machine that isn't useable...it's invaluable. Arch wasn't designed for newbies, not that newbies "can't" use Arch, but putting needless packages/docs on the install iso is probably NOT the arch way.

corsakh · 2009-11-14 10:56:35

From memory, the installer instructions also point out that the Guide is on the iso

Not the beginners guide.

There is a very thorough section on the wiki on dual booting I wouldn't see this as part of the Guide as it is (a) more advanced, and (b) would duplicate existing info.

I am talking about very basic thing, not the whole article. Nothing wrong with duplication. Beginner's Guide is supposed to be this way, just like FAQ.

That's kinda an awkward thing to do because the guide is always getting updated. My opinion is that the text browser 'links' should be on the iso and be even nicer if it's home page was the BG.

Ye a link is a good idea. But what about people who don't have an internet connection or who get in trouble before they can set up the network? Perhaps provide them with a latest guide avaialbe at the time of iso creation and notify with a link that if there is a newer version available after the network is started.

Even with a veteran Windows user, I don't know if I'd recommend Arch to him.

Sorry, too late I did not really find it too hard, just follow the instructions and do everything as said, I had it fully running with Internet and Gnome in about three hours. Well, I used Ubuntu for a week before this too.

For setting up mirrors, I would suggest uncommenting multiple mirrors so if one fails, pacman can try another.

Ye, thats not really an option at install I think.

Afaik, Arch (the Core ISO at least) gives you a choice between nano, joe's own editor, and vim.

I have not tried, but it probably does not matter where you use ctrl-z, it will still drop you to bash. Its just that a text editor triggers the use of this hotkey for any Windows user

You just stop the process and to restart it you can type that command

Ye, thanks. I also don't think its arch's issue, but as I said given the audience of the beginner guide it might be a good idea to put it somewhere.

It might be worth pointing people to the Arch Linux Handbook in the Guide?

I have not read it yet, but certainly.

The guide explained this.

Perhaps, but its not clear enough. After trying to copy the modules given in that section I got errors.

That said, me, I have a SLAX disk ..... ALWAYS. If I need to do something on the net when my computer is not in a useable state, I pop in my SLAX disk and do whatever I need to. Easy Peasy.
However, since I have 5 computers.....this is rarely necc. for me to do, but sometimes when I'm offsite at a customers only machine that isn't useable...it's invaluable. Arch wasn't designed for newbies, not that newbies "can't" use Arch, but putting needless packages/docs on the install iso is probably NOT the arch way.

I don't know what the heck you said or who it was for. But thats the exact type of attitude that turns away so many people from Linux.

Thank you all.

Last edited by corsakh (2009-11-14 10:58:53)

tomk · 2009-11-14 12:37:32

corsakh - crouse is not expressing an "attitude". Rather, he is encouraging you to learn a little about Arch, its design principles, and its intended userbase, so that your suggestions will be more in line with the way Arch works.

On the other hand, If the Arch way does not suit your requirements, that's OK too.

corsakh · 2009-11-14 12:58:21

Tomk, may I ask if considering Beginners Guide a "needless doc" is something that you and crouse believe in or is it something that is shared by the community?

sHyLoCk · 2009-11-14 13:23:54

corsakh wrote:

Tomk, may I ask if considering Beginners Guide a "needless doc" is something that you and crouse believe in or is it something that is shared by the community?

Of course it's not "needless". Do you think Arch users just magically learnt how to install/use/maintain their system? Even if you have had linux experience prior to Arch installation, I gurantee you would still need to look at the documentation. I think you are misunderstanding what is being said above.

Regards

Gen2ly · 2009-11-14 13:50:47

Deiter@be (that's his alias) build the Arch installer. You might want to try and contact him and pass these on. For the most part I think they are good tips and would be beneficial to the install. You can post on the mailling list or find his name here on the forum.

tomk · 2009-11-14 13:55:26

I have not expressed any opinions here about your suggestions, nor do I intend to. I do, however, intend to keep this thread on-topic and civil, and it is in that context that I posted the response above.

Daenyth · 2009-11-14 14:05:17

corsakh wrote:

Sup,
I am a total newb so I guess I'd share some difficulties that I encountered during installation that could be easily avoided.
1) Put the Beginners Guide on the ISO. I don't have a second computer. So I had to print out a 63 page manuscript + GNOME instructions that I am likely to ever use once. Thats a total waste of paper and time.

It's on the cd already, and AFAIR has been so for over a year.

2) The first mirror that I selected was down. I waited, and waited, and waited. I did not know what to do, so I rebooted. Please tell us what to do in this situation.

Did pacman print out an error message?

3) I accidentally pressed ctrl-z while typing in vi. I don't know how to get it back so I had to reboot Now, thats not exactly Arch problem but since its a Beginners Guide, many people using it are coming from Windows where ctrl-z is very widely used in text editing, but it has a completely undesired effect on Linux systems. I'm positive I am not the only one who did this.

Beginner's Guide wrote:

Arch Linux is aimed at competent GNU/Linux users

I'm not saying that you can't use Arch, but if it's your first distro you need to be aware that it has a learning curve, and you will need to do some extra homework to adjust. That being said, I think it's a great first distro if you want to learn about linux, just be prepared to *learn*.

4) Its not entirely clear what should be put into the mkinitcpio.conf file. I tried adding base and udev modules to the MODULE string, but ended up with errors on image creation.

Again, some basic background knowledge is expected. Udev and base are packages and package groups, respectively. This section refers to kernel modules that your system requires during boot time, before the kernel is loaded.

5) Again, since its a Beginners Guide and many people are coming from Windows, I think its important to provide basic instructions for dual boot. I am basically now stuck changing disk order in BIOS until I figure out how to edit the Grub configuration correctly.

Beginner's Guide wrote:

If you would like to dual boot Arch Linux and a Windows operating systems please see Windows and Arch Dual Boot.

It's expected that you read the guide before beginning your installation. In any case, the wiki has the answer you need.

On a bright side, after all this I can now install Arch in about 10 minutes

Glad to hear that you didn't let the issues you hit discourage you. Welcome to Arch!

.:B:. · 2009-11-14 15:25:23

I agree with crouse - although not with his wording. Putting the Beginner's guide on the ISO is not the way to go. You might want to look into your own 'attitude' - expecting a distro aimed at a certain well-defined public to do things that are out of the scope of the distro, then being offended when people tell you that's not how Arch does things. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen .

Arch is indeed still aimed at competent users - call that an 'attitude' if you want. If people think they're up to the task of installing and maintaining Arch (running Arch isn't difficult) then they are, by all means, free to put that to the test. I do not care if one runs Ubuntu for a day or a year before one tries Arch, or comes straight from Windows, or never even touched a PC before. I do care if one thinks one deserves the right to special treatment just because they didn't work their way through and have actual Linux skills before trying Arch.

I had run Linux two years when I installed Arch. I could find my way around quite well on Slackware systems and on Ubuntu and Fedora and the likes. I built my own kernels, I built my own packages and had done a few (C)LFS installations. Yet when I installed Arch I read the installation guide front to back and had it open when I performed my first test run (which went fine). The installation guide *is* on the ISO and should be all you need to get up and running. If you do need more, print the Beginners' Guide or have it open on another box during installation. I know 63 pages is a lot - I for one wouldn't have printed the Gnome documentation. Just make sure you can get online with the installation (you don't need much for that, and the devs have gone out of their way to make sure you can connect with wireless too in the early stages of installation) and you can use links or another text browser to read what you need.

Also - I can assure you most of the Arch userbase has to consult some type of information (man page, online howto, wiki, forum, irc) on a regular basis. You're not alone.

Welcome to the pack .

crouse · 2009-11-14 15:47:14

corsakh wrote:

That said, me, I have a SLAX disk ..... ALWAYS. If I need to do something on the net when my computer is not in a useable state, I pop in my SLAX disk and do whatever I need to. Easy Peasy.
However, since I have 5 computers.....this is rarely necc. for me to do, but sometimes when I'm offsite at a customers only machine that isn't useable...it's invaluable. Arch wasn't designed for newbies, not that newbies "can't" use Arch, but putting needless packages/docs on the install iso is probably NOT the arch way.
I don't know what the heck you said or who it was for. But thats the exact type of attitude that turns away so many people from Linux.
Thank you all.

Corsakh, truely I don't have any attitude, and I wasn't trying to be "mean"... If I was trying to be mean there wouldn't be any doubt about it
For over a decade I have been helping hundreds if not thousands of users convert to Linux. I have started multiple forums, usalug.org, opensuse.us, bashscripts.org, and with the distinct intent of helping those new to Linux. I've always went above and beyond to help newbies. However, when you jump into Linux and start with one of the most bleeding edge distro's that even states it is for compent Linux users, and then start complaining, what do you expect to be told ???? Perhaps I was to blunt, and if you or anyone thinks so, then I apologize, it was late when I posted

The truth of the matter is that Arch is NOT designed for those new to Linux.... Mandriva is, OpenSuse is, Fedora is, and of course Ubuntu is.... all much better choices for someone new to Linux than Arch is. That was the point I was attempting to make. I linked to the wiki page that even states that fact. Arch is what it is, and it's designed for people that have some Linux experience, it doesn't hold your hand, and people expect you to be able to solve some of your own problems. Think of the install process as sort of a litmus test.... if you can't handle that, then your not going to be able to handle things when they break It's Arch, it will break, and you will experience a few difficulties..... that's just the way it is when your run a bleeding edge distro like Arch. Personally, I'd rather fix Arch once in a blue moon than deal with any of the other distro's. My advice on having a SLAX disk was good advice. If you don't know what it is, you REALLY should search google for it and try it. It can save your bacon if you have only one machine to work with.

I won't budge from my stand that Arch isn't for newbies, it's not....period. I've ran across too many people in other forums that weren't "compenent Linux users" that tried Arch and then went around saying how horrible it was blah blah blah blah ... because they weren't ready for it. I hate seeing that happen. HOWEVER, on this forum are many people that overcame that hurdle through perserverance and dedication and just plain using their brains. They have my respect, it takes alot to do that. So, if you can handle it, your going to find Arch is one of the best Linux versions you could ever use, and I think you'll enjoy it if you stick with it long enough. Most people that leave come back ..... eventually

I wrote a blog post on this very subject, that I won't bother reposting, but here is a link if you care to read it: http://archlinux.me/crouse/2009/06/03/w … -to-linux/

sHyLoCk · 2009-11-14 16:04:20

New Linux users can of course use Arch Linux if they read documentation properly. When you start studying C for the first time, how do you do it without any prior knowledge of it? You study, write codes, play around with it, try to create and explore. That's what Arch is all about. Atleast to me.

BEST Advice to New users or any user trying out Arch for the first time:
1. Install Virtualbox.
2. Install Arch inside it.
3. After successfully completing it , try to install X, video/audio drivers, your choice of DE/WM, etc following the guide.

If you succeed then go for the "real" install.

litemotiv · 2009-11-14 16:41:41

About the Beginner's Guide in general, imho it might be a good idea to create a smaller, more focused Quick Start guide with references to more detailed information. There's so much data available for beginners that the BG tends to bloat real fast, compromising readability and effectivity (i'm sure this has been said before, and yes i understand it's a challenge ).

For example. a real beginner has no idea what the difference between KDE and Gnome is, and this isn't helping:

# If you want something full-featured and similar to Windows and Mac OSX, KDE is a good choice
# If you want something slightly more minimalist, which follows the K.I.S.S. principle more closely, GNOME is a good choice

Although Arch is about choice, the above is misleading and confusing, it's pseudo-choice. Following with specific installation instructions for both DE's is consequently pseudo-information, i.e. it's non-informative in the context of the task at hand and therefore 'data' instead of 'information'.

A good, focused beginner's guide should either use a single example to show the 'way of doing things', or solely reference more specific information on which a choice can be based. In this case that could be explaining the main differences and similarities between DE's and WM's (QT / GTK, philosophy etc.) and then link to their respective wiki pages for installation instructions. Either approach can be substantiated, as long as the user receives real information (occam's razor applies here).

For the windowmanagers this applies even more, something like this:

Fluxbox
Fluxbox is yet another windowmanager for X. It's based on the Blackbox 0.61.1 code. Fluxbox looks like blackbox and handles styles, colors, window placement and similar things exactly like blackbox (100% theme/style compability).
Install Fluxbox using
# pacman -S fluxbox fluxconf
If you use gdm/kdm a new fluxbox session will be automatically added. Otherwise, you should modify your user's .xinitrc and add this to it:
exec startfluxbox

Is completely out of scope for a beginner's guide. Even most semi-experienced users (coming from ubuntu/fedora etc.) often times have no idea what a WM is about, the ones that do will be fine with a single link to the appropriate page.

So in general, the BG should only provide instructions when there's a single or preferred way of doing things, for every other case it should provide information and references to instructions.

Things that in my opinion should not be verbose in a general newbie guide and would be better to reference instead:

- filesystems (use ext3/4 as example)
- analog modems / isdn etc.
- third party tools like openntpd, powerpill
- proprietary video (nvidia/catalyst)
- manual xorg.conf configuration
- fonts configuration
- desktop environments / window managers (i would suggest using xfce as an example)

Last edited by litemotiv (2009-11-14 17:12:49)

Gen2ly · 2009-11-14 16:56:39

B wrote:

I agree with...

lol, go B!

Note: the op was constructive, but have to agree with what the others have said.

crouse · 2009-11-14 17:43:08

http://www.amazon.com/Arch-Linux-Handbo … 1448699606

I like dusty's solution too. See link above

anonymous_user · 2009-11-14 17:52:20

corsakh wrote:

For setting up mirrors, I would suggest uncommenting multiple mirrors so if one fails, pacman can try another.
Ye, thats not really an option at install I think.

During installation you have to edit the mirrors list:

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beg … man-Mirror

To use a mirror you have to uncomment them (remove the "#" in front). So just uncomment multiple mirrors.

corsakh wrote:

Afaik, Arch (the Core ISO at least) gives you a choice between nano, joe's own editor, and vim.
I have not tried, but it probably does not matter where you use ctrl-z, it will still drop you to bash. Its just that a text editor triggers the use of this hotkey for any Windows user

Ok that part is true. Perhaps the Beginners Guide means beginner to Arch not Linux.

ottis · 2009-11-14 18:15:13

^^ The guide does not cover what to do if a mirror fails during installation.

I don't recall if you'd have to press ^c, or if it just brings you back to dialog.

One thing I've been meaning to suggest if the removal of /etc as a "suggested" mount option. I'll guess I have to do that in AIF's bugtracker, though.

Misfit138 · 2009-11-14 20:07:34

ottis wrote:

...One thing I've been meaning to suggest if the removal of /etc as a "suggested" mount option. I'll guess I have to do that in AIF's bugtracker, though.

Seems like a worthwhile feature request; please go for it.

Arch Linux

#1 2009-11-13 04:51:11

Suggestions to improve Beginners Guide

#2 2009-11-13 05:31:35

Re: Suggestions to improve Beginners Guide

#3 2009-11-13 05:51:01

Re: Suggestions to improve Beginners Guide

#4 2009-11-13 07:27:57

Re: Suggestions to improve Beginners Guide

#5 2009-11-13 14:23:35

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#6 2009-11-13 14:35:26

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#7 2009-11-13 15:00:03

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#8 2009-11-13 16:54:41

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#9 2009-11-14 03:58:30

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#10 2009-11-14 10:56:35

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#11 2009-11-14 12:37:32

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#13 2009-11-14 13:23:54

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#14 2009-11-14 13:50:47

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Re: Suggestions to improve Beginners Guide

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