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#1 2009-11-15 18:37:02

rent0n
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 457
Website

Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Hi!
It seems I can't figure out how to set the two finger scrolling on my touchpad.
It worked out of the box on the other lapton on which I've installed Arch and I'm quite addicted to it...:(

I followed the Wiki, so here's my /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
<deviceinfo version="0.2">
  <device>
    <match key="info.product" contains="ETPS/2 Elantech Touchpad">
        <append key="info.capabilities" type="strlist">input.touchpad</append>
    </match> 
    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
        <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1" type="string">1</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton2" type="string">2</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton3" type="string">3</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig" type="string">true</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxTapMove" type="string">2000</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll" type="string">true</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.VertTwoFingerScroll" type="string">true</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizTwoFingerScroll" type="string">true</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.EmulateTwoFingerMinZ" type="string">60</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.CircularScrolling" type="string">true</merge>
    </match>

  </device>
</deviceinfo>

This is synclient -L:

Parameter settings:
    LeftEdge                = 1752
    RightEdge               = 5192
    TopEdge                 = 1620
    BottomEdge              = 4236
    FingerLow               = 24
    FingerHigh              = 29
    FingerPress             = 255
    MaxTapTime              = 180
    MaxTapMove              = 2000
    MaxDoubleTapTime        = 180
    SingleTapTimeout        = 180
    ClickTime               = 100
    FastTaps                = 0
    EmulateMidButtonTime    = 75
    EmulateTwoFingerMinZ    = 120
    EmulateTwoFingerMinW    = 7
    VertScrollDelta         = 100
    HorizScrollDelta        = 100
    VertEdgeScroll          = 1
    HorizEdgeScroll         = 0
    CornerCoasting          = 0
    VertTwoFingerScroll     = 1
    HorizTwoFingerScroll    = 1
    MinSpeed                = 0.4
    MaxSpeed                = 0.7
    AccelFactor             = 0.00995223
    TrackstickSpeed         = 40
    EdgeMotionMinZ          = 29
    EdgeMotionMaxZ          = 159
    EdgeMotionMinSpeed      = 1
    EdgeMotionMaxSpeed      = 401
    EdgeMotionUseAlways     = 0
    UpDownScrolling         = 1
    LeftRightScrolling      = 1
    UpDownScrollRepeat      = 1
    LeftRightScrollRepeat   = 1
    ScrollButtonRepeat      = 100
    TouchpadOff             = 0
    GuestMouseOff           = 0
    LockedDrags             = 0
    LockedDragTimeout       = 5000
    RTCornerButton          = 0
    RBCornerButton          = 0
    LTCornerButton          = 0
    LBCornerButton          = 0
    TapButton1              = 1
    TapButton2              = 2
    TapButton3              = 3
    ClickFinger1            = 1
    ClickFinger2            = 1
    ClickFinger3            = 1
    CircularScrolling       = 1
    CircScrollDelta         = 0.1
    CircScrollTrigger       = 0
    CircularPad             = 0
    PalmDetect              = 0
    PalmMinWidth            = 10
    PalmMinZ                = 199
    CoastingSpeed           = 0
    PressureMotionMinZ      = 29
    PressureMotionMaxZ      = 159
    PressureMotionMinFactor = 1
    PressureMotionMaxFactor = 1
    GrabEventDevice         = 1
    TapAndDragGesture       = 1
    AreaLeftEdge            = 0
    AreaRightEdge           = 0
    AreaTopEdge             = 0
    AreaBottomEdge          = 0

So everything should be set fine.
Another problem is that if I run synclient -m 100, as suggested in the wiki I got:

    time     x    y   z f  w  l r u d m     multi  gl gm gr gdx gdy
   0.000     0    0   0 0  0  0 0 0 0 0  00000000   0  0  0   0   0

But nothing changes if I touch or move the touchpad.

I really don't know what to do...any help would be much appreciated! big_smile
Thank you!

EDIT: Cicular Scrolling works perfectly...but I don't use it!

Last edited by rent0n (2009-11-15 18:42:23)

rent0n@deviantART | rent0n@bitbucket | rent0n@identi.ca | LRU #337812
aspire: Acer Aspire 5920 Arch Linux x86_64 | beetle: Gericom Beetle G733 Arch Linux i686

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#2 2009-11-15 20:29:17

Daenyth
Forum Fellow
From: Boston, MA
Registered: 2008-02-24
Posts: 1,244

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Read the wiki page on synaptics, it shows you how to enable it in xorg.conf. Works fine on my Eee

[git] | [AURpkgs] | [arch-games]

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#3 2009-11-15 20:29:19

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

this solved mine but if you still have problem have a look also here
BTW Mid-button-emulation will work by two finger tapping as 2finger scrolling will do.

F

do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#4 2009-11-15 22:51:11

rent0n
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 457
Website

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Daenyth wrote:

Read the wiki page on synaptics, it shows you how to enable it in xorg.conf. Works fine on my Eee

Well, I was trying not to use xorg.conf since it's deprecated in favour of HAL (and I don't have a xorg.conf actually), but I would try if it's the only possibility.

TheSaint wrote:

this solved mine but if you still have problem have a look also here
BTW Mid-button-emulation will work by two finger tapping as 2finger scrolling will do.

I had already seen the first link, but my problem is that I'm not able to use synclient because it only shows a list of zeros and nothing else.
I've tried to change that parameter with 10 50 100 and 1000 but nothing changes actually.
The second link doesn't work, can you retype it please?

I'm sure there's something wrong... I absolutely need this lovely two-finger scroll to work!

Thank you for any help!

rent0n@deviantART | rent0n@bitbucket | rent0n@identi.ca | LRU #337812
aspire: Acer Aspire 5920 Arch Linux x86_64 | beetle: Gericom Beetle G733 Arch Linux i686

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#5 2009-11-15 22:58:23

SoleSoul
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2009-06-29
Posts: 319

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

You have the driver installed right? xf86-input-synaptics
And you don't have the old synaptics package, right?
Just to be sure wink

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#6 2009-11-15 22:58:45

VirtualRider
Member
Registered: 2008-08-20
Posts: 134

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Here, try mine:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
<deviceinfo version="0.2">
  <device>
    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
        <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
        <!-- Arbitrary options can be passed to the driver using
             the input.x11_options property since xorg-server-1.5. -->
        <!-- EXAMPLE:
        <merge key="input.x11_options.LeftEdge" type="string">120</merge>
        -->
    <merge key="input.x11_options.Device" type="string">/dev/input/mouse0</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.Protocol" type="string">auto-dev</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.LeftEdge" type="string">1700</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.RightEdge" type="string">5300</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.TopEdge" type="string">1700</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.BottomEdge" type="string">4200</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.FingerLow" type="string">25</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.FingerHigh" type="string">30</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxTapTime" type="string">180</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxTapMove" type="string">220</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.VertScrollDelta" type="string">100</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.MinSpeed" type="string">0.12</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxSpeed" type="string">0.18</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.AccelFactor" type="string">0.010</merge>
    <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig" type="string">on</merge>
  <merge key="input.x11_options.AlwaysCore" type="string">true</merge>
  <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll" type="string">true</merge>
  <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll" type="string">true</merge>
  <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1" type="string">1</merge>
  <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton2" type="string">2</merge>
  <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton3" type="string">3</merge>

    </match>
  </device>
</deviceinfo>

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#7 2009-11-16 15:48:56

rent0n
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 457
Website

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

@SoleSoul: Yes I've installed the xf86-input-synaptics package.
@VirtualRider: Thanks, I've tried it, but with no luck (however, I can't see a two-finger scrolling section in your file).

I feel that I'm facing another kind of problem: it seems that HAL is not reading my 11-x11-synaptics-fdi at all.
How can I be sure about this?
Why does my synclient -m 100 doesn't work? Why is it displying only zero (0) and does not change at all?

On my other laptop, the two-finger scrolling works out-of-the-box without using any file.
I can't see any solutions. sad

rent0n@deviantART | rent0n@bitbucket | rent0n@identi.ca | LRU #337812
aspire: Acer Aspire 5920 Arch Linux x86_64 | beetle: Gericom Beetle G733 Arch Linux i686

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#8 2009-11-16 16:23:28

VirtualRider
Member
Registered: 2008-08-20
Posts: 134

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Hm, you don't have a xorg.conf so input hotplugging shouldn't be disabled - but you could try a minimal xorg instead?

PS: I don't need 2-finger-scrolling so it's not in my synaptics config, but it works in both directions

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#9 2009-11-18 16:21:49

zenlord
Member
From: Belgium
Registered: 2006-05-24
Posts: 1,221
Website

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

If you run the command
$ hal-device

You'll get an output of all HAL-devices. Your touchpad should be there and if your fdi is used, all the options should be merged with that device. If you find the uid of the touchpad-device, you can chose to show only that device (just read the help for hal-device)

With my macbook, I had to change the 'match'-rule from what was default. So if your match-rule is not matched, your fdi-file will not get merged.

Capiche? wink

Zl.

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#10 2009-12-02 19:46:08

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

zenlord wrote:

If you run the command
$ hal-device

hal-device /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX1_port_logicaldev_input
udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX1_port_logicaldev_input'
  linux.hotplug_type = 2  (0x2)  (int)
  linux.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  input.device = '/dev/input/event2'  (string)
  input.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  input.x11_driver = 'synaptics'  (string)
  info.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  info.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  info.udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX1_port_logicaldev_input'  (string)
  input.originating_device = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX1_port'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton1 = '1'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton2 = '2'  (string)
  linux.device_file = '/dev/input/event2'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton3 = '3'  (string)
  input.x11_options.AlwaysCore = 'true'  (string)
  input.x11_options.MinSpeed = '0.09'  (string)
  input.x11_options.MaxSpeed = '0.18'  (string)
  input.x11_options.Emulate3Buttons = 'true'  (string)
  input.x11_options.SHMConfig = 'true'  (string)
  input.x11_options.AccelFactor = '0.032'  (string)
  input.x11_options.LeftEdge = '1700'  (string)
  input.x11_options.RightEdge = '5300'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TopEdge = '1700'  (string)
  input.x11_options.BottomEdge = '4200'  (string)
  input.x11_options.FingerLow = '25'  (string)
  input.x11_options.FingerHigh = '30'  (string)
  input.x11_options.MaxTapTime = '180'  (string)
  input.x11_options.MaxTapMove = '220'  (string)
  input.x11_options.Device = '/dev/input/event2'  (string)
  input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
  input.x11_options.HorizScrollDelta = '100'  (string)
  input.x11_options.EmulateTwoFingerMinZ = '55'  (string)
  input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll = 'true'  (string)
  input.x11_options.VertScrollDelta = '100'  (string)
  input.x11_options.RTCornerButton = '2'  (string)
  linux.sysfs_path = '/sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio2/input/input2/event2'  (string)
  info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX1_port'  (string)
  input.x11_options.RBCornerButton = '3'  (string)
  info.category = 'input'  (string)
  info.capabilities = { 'input', 'input.touchpad' } (string list)

But in my /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi I have:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?>
<deviceinfo version="0.2">
  <device>
    <match key="info.capabilities" contains="input.touchpad">
      <match key="info.product" contains="Synaptics TouchPad">
        <merge key="input.x11_options.Device" type="string">/dev/input/event2</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_driver" type="string">synaptics</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.AlwaysCore"       type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.MinSpeed"         type="string">0.09</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxSpeed"         type="string">0.18</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.Emulate3Buttons"  type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.SHMConfig"        type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.AccelFactor"      type="string">0.032</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.LeftEdge"         type="string">1700</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.RightEdge"        type="string">5300</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.TopEdge"          type="string">1700</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.BottomEdge"       type="string">4200</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.FingerLow"        type="string">25</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.FingerHigh"       type="string">30</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxTapTime"       type="string">180</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.MaxTapMove"       type="string">220</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizEdgeScroll"  type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.HorizScrollDelta" type="string">100</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.EmulateTwoFingerMinZ" type="string">55</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.VertEdgeScroll"   type="string">true</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.VertScrollDelta"  type="string">100</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.RTCornerButton"   type="string">2</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.RBCornerButton"   type="string">3</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton1"       type="string">1</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton2"       type="string">2</merge>
        <merge key="input.x11_options.TapButton3"       type="string">3</merge>
      </match>
    </match>
  </device>
</deviceinfo>
zenlord wrote:

So if your match-rule is not matched, your fdi-file will not get merged.

I can't understand why no working synaptics functions with my touchpad

F

do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#11 2009-12-02 22:23:38

rent0n
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 457
Website

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

In my case I figured out that the main problem is the laptop itself. lol
I've got an Acer Aspire 5920 where the lateral media keys (that I manged to configure perfectly) are recognized by GNU/Linux like a second touchpad.
For some reason I can't understand, the presence of two touchpads prevents the real touchpad to discriminate between two fingers and one big finger.

However, no particular configuration should be required, because two-finger scrolling and two-finger tap are enabled by default.

This is my xinput list:

⎡ Virtual core pointer                        id=2    [master pointer  (3)]
⎜   ↳ Virtual core XTEST pointer                  id=4    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ Macintosh mouse button emulation            id=8    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad                  id=9    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad                  id=10    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎜   ↳ Logitech USB Optical Mouse                  id=13    [slave  pointer  (2)]
⎣ Virtual core keyboard                       id=3    [master keyboard (2)]
    ↳ Virtual core XTEST keyboard                 id=5    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Video Bus                                   id=6    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ AT Translated Set 2 keyboard                id=7    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Chicony  USB Keyboard                       id=11    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Chicony  USB Keyboard                       id=12    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Acer CrystalEye webcam                      id=14    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Sleep Button                                id=15    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                                id=16    [slave  keyboard (3)]
    ↳ Power Button                                id=17    [slave  keyboard (3)]

9 is the touchpad, 10 are media keys.

Similarly, I have two related entries in hal-device:

udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX3_port_logicaldev_input'
  linux.hotplug_type = 2  (0x2)  (int)
  linux.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  input.device = '/dev/input/event9'  (string)
  input.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  info.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  info.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  linux.sysfs_path = '/sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio4/input/input9/event9'  (string)
  info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX3_port'  (string)
  input.x11_driver = 'synaptics'  (string)
  info.capabilities = { 'input', 'input.touchpad' } (string list)
  info.category = 'input'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton1 = '1'  (string)
  input.originating_device = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX3_port'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton3 = '3'  (string)
  linux.device_file = '/dev/input/event9'  (string)
  info.udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX3_port_logicaldev_input'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton2 = '2'  (string)

udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX2_port_logicaldev_input'
  linux.hotplug_type = 2  (0x2)  (int)
  linux.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  input.device = '/dev/input/event7'  (string)
  input.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  info.subsystem = 'input'  (string)
  info.product = 'SynPS/2 Synaptics TouchPad'  (string)
  linux.sysfs_path = '/sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio3/input/input7/event7'  (string)
  info.parent = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX2_port'  (string)
  input.x11_driver = 'synaptics'  (string)
  info.capabilities = { 'input', 'input.touchpad' } (string list)
  info.category = 'input'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton1 = '1'  (string)
  input.originating_device = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX2_port'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton3 = '3'  (string)
  linux.device_file = '/dev/input/event7'  (string)
  info.udi = '/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_i8042_i8042_AUX2_port_logicaldev_input'  (string)
  input.x11_options.TapButton2 = '2'  (string)

I'm sure I'm not able to solve this issue..is there someone, with some knowledge on hal, who can help me?

Thank you! big_smile

rent0n@deviantART | rent0n@bitbucket | rent0n@identi.ca | LRU #337812
aspire: Acer Aspire 5920 Arch Linux x86_64 | beetle: Gericom Beetle G733 Arch Linux i686

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#12 2009-12-06 19:30:36

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

rent0n wrote:

I've got an Acer Aspire 5920 where the lateral media keys

Very similar here with Aspire 6935.

But if I set the values by xorg.conf I can get 2-finger functions, but no hot plugging.
Hal drop the synaptics driver because of the media center touch key confusion

F

do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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#13 2009-12-06 20:38:20

Sir_Leon
Member
Registered: 2006-09-03
Posts: 31

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Hi,

Have you tried setting it up from Gnome Mouse Preferences?
System -> Mouse -> Touchpad Tab
Two-Finger Scrolling

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#14 2009-12-07 18:45:26

rent0n
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 457
Website

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

TheSaint wrote:

Hal drop the synaptics driver because of the media center touch key confusion

Yes, this seems to be the explanation. hmm

Sir_Leon wrote:

Have you tried setting it up from Gnome Mouse Preferences?

No because I don't have Gnome. However, I think that is just a GUI to perform actions on hal files. hmm

rent0n@deviantART | rent0n@bitbucket | rent0n@identi.ca | LRU #337812
aspire: Acer Aspire 5920 Arch Linux x86_64 | beetle: Gericom Beetle G733 Arch Linux i686

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#15 2009-12-08 14:00:43

rent0n
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 457
Website

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Well, I've found this and seems quite interesring:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1313893

It is a way to apply a patch on the synaptics package that should make it able to recognize media keys and touchpad separately.

What do you guys think of it? It is worth a try? roll

rent0n@deviantART | rent0n@bitbucket | rent0n@identi.ca | LRU #337812
aspire: Acer Aspire 5920 Arch Linux x86_64 | beetle: Gericom Beetle G733 Arch Linux i686

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#16 2009-12-08 15:35:58

miau
Member
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 202

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

Maybe your MinZ Value is too low, so that the driver doesn't recognize your second finger. You can check these values with synclient.

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#17 2009-12-08 16:22:59

rent0n
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 457
Website

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

miau wrote:

Maybe your MinZ Value is too low, so that the driver doesn't recognize your second finger. You can check these values with synclient.

Well actually the problem is that synclient doesn't work, probably because hal is confused about the two different devices...:/

rent0n@deviantART | rent0n@bitbucket | rent0n@identi.ca | LRU #337812
aspire: Acer Aspire 5920 Arch Linux x86_64 | beetle: Gericom Beetle G733 Arch Linux i686

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#18 2009-12-08 16:47:05

TheSaint
Member
From: my computer
Registered: 2007-08-19
Posts: 1,523

Re: Two Finger Scrolling with Synaptics

miau wrote:

Maybe your MinZ Value is too low.

Mine works fine, if it is set by xorg.conf parameters.

F

do it good first, it will be faster than do it twice the saint wink

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