Debian Linux

hermes1908 · 2009-12-19 19:20:44

Hello. This if my first post so forgive me if I do something wrong. I have been using Arch Linux for quite some time. It was my third "real" linux distribution and probably the one I have used for the longest sustained period of time. The primary reason I was attracted to arch was because of its minimalist design philosophy and package management facilities (and perhaps 'cause I have a little too much Canadian pride). It has since surpassed all of my expectations and I am proud to consider myself an arch "enthusiast". So don't get me wrong when I say I wish to try Debian. You see I have reached that stage in my arch distros life-cycle where my system has become so bloated that I feel obliged to reformat. Given that I have been using arch for about two years I thought I would take the opportunity to try something different. While I find many debian-based distributions too bloated (Ubuntu) I am attracted to some the features of "pure" debian. However before I make the switch I have two questions.

1) How does Debian compare to Archlinux in your opinion? (in terms of minimalism, package management, and community) (yes I have read the wiki I just want more opinions)

2) Debian itself does not come with an i686 optimized version. If I was to compile my own i686 kernel how much of a difference (in terms of speed) would I notice? (using i386 packages as opposed to Arch's 1686 packages)

Thanks in Advance

Hermes

wuischke · 2009-12-19 19:48:52

I use Debian (stable) for servers and arch for my laptop.

Regarding 2. There's no reason to compile, just install linux-image-2.6-686 The speed difference should be negligible, maybe 1-2%.

1. apt-get and aptitude are slow compared to pacman. And there's an important difference to Arch: Debian packages are divided into many parts. The good side is that your install might get smaller, because you only install necessary packages. The bad side is that you have to install -dev packages if you want to compile anything, it's (imo) needlessly complex and you'll often only realize when you encounter an error that you missed to install a package, which for instance provides language extensions for a library.

A plus side is the really huge package selection in Debian. Unless you use stable (in this case you'll miss anything remotely recent), you'll hardly ever have to compile. Heck, somebody even put a project I released years ago in their repos, so it should have about everything.

I guess you read about stable, testing and sid already. The stable branch is badly outdated, but I haven't had things break on me yet. Testing should be more or less like Ubuntu and sid is similar to Arch, pretty much rolling release and things might occasionally (seldom) break.

I haven't interacted much with the community, but you'll find plenty of help just by searching the web.

One last thing: Configuration is imho a bit more complicated in Debian compared to Arch. There's a logic behind it and once you read through all the documentation, it works just fine. I was saved by knowing how to connect to WPA secured wireless by hand, otherwise I would have had no internet for research when I last installed Debian. Arch's netcfg is really comfortable.

hermes1908 · 2009-12-19 20:00:50

Haha, thanks for the information. My linux knowledge is somewhat broken (as I am still in highschool and I never read the docs). I wasn't even aware netcfg existed I always connect to wireless points using wifiutils (iwconfig, iwlist, wpa_client etc). Your post was quite insightful. After a bit of hanging around the irc channel I think I'm ready to take the plunge.

Gen2ly · 2009-12-19 20:15:33

Well put, wuischke. I'd just thought I'd add that Debian auto-configures some packages which can be a pain sometimes to go back and configure things how you need. If you need only the basics though it usually isn't something you'll run into. apt and dpkg aren't as trim or consolidated as pacman, but they real good still. I've wrote a script to help with package management that helps me out a bit:

#!/bin/bash
# apt - shorthand frontend to debian management tasks
# http://www.cyberciti.biz/ref/apt-dpkg-ref.html

if [[ -z $@ ]]; then
  echo "apt <option> <*package> - debian management tasks
  c | clean   - cleans apt-get caches and package downloads
  d | distup  - distribution upgrade
  i | install - installs package and dependencies
  I | local   - install a local .deb package
  l | list    - list files installed by the package
  n | info    - package information
  o | owns    - lists package that owns the file
  q | query   - search for an installed package
  r | remove  - removes package and unneeded dependencies
  s | search  - searchs for package and package description
  u | update  - updates system
  y | sync    - sync repository database
  purge       - removes package and configurations
  taskinst    - add a package group
  tasklist    - list package groups
  taskpkg     - lisk packages in a group
  taskrem     - remove package group"
  exit
fi

case $1 in
  c | clean )   apt-get clean && apt-get autoclean
                ;;
  d | distup )  apt-get dist-upgrade
                ;;
  i | install ) shift
                apt-get install "$@"
                ;;
  I | local )   shift
                dpkg -i "$@"
                ;;
  l | list )    shift
                dpkg -L "$@"
                ;;
  n | info )    shift
                apt-cache show "$@"
                ;;
  o | owns  )   shift
                dpkg -S "$@"
                ;;
  q | query )   shift
                dpkg -l | grep "$@"
                ;;
  r | remove )  shift
                apt-get remove -D "$@"
                ;;
  s | search )  shift
                apt-cache search "$@"
                ;;
  u | update )  apt-get update
                apt-get upgrade
                ;;
  y | sync )    apt-get update
                ;;
  purge )       shift
                apt-get --purge remove "$@"
                ;;
  taskinst )    shift
                tasksel install "$@"
                ;;
  tasklist )    tasksel --list-tasks
                ;;
  taskpkg )     shift
                tasksel --task-packages "$@"
                ;;
  taskrem )     shift
                tasksel remove "$@"
                ;;
  * )           shift
                apt-get "$@"
                ;;
esac

Last edited by Gen2ly (2009-12-20 14:00:17)

HashBox · 2009-12-19 23:03:06

Nice script Gen2ly! I shall "steal" it for my ~/bin

Edit: You might want to change that /bin/sh to /bin/bash since dash doesn't seem to like '[[' among other things, just fyi

Last edited by HashBox (2009-12-19 23:05:56)

tomk · 2009-12-19 23:49:42

hermes1908 wrote:

I have reached that stage in my arch distros life-cycle where my system has become so bloated that I feel obliged to reformat.

Uhmm... what??
My understanding of that statement is that you have used pacman to install lots of stuff, so here's a crazy idea, that just might work: use pacman to remove the stuff you don't want.

Reformatting is unnecessary.

hermes1908 wrote:

Given that I have been using arch for about two years I thought I would take the opportunity to try something different.

OK... I have another crazy idea for this, so maybe you should sit down first.....

dual-booting!!

This awesome procedure allows you to try as many different, weird, complicated, mouldy, old distros as you like, with the comforting reassurance that the minimalist design philosophy, package management facilities, Canadian pride(?), and surpassed expectations of Arch that you seem to love so much are just a reboot away.

Re your specific questions:
1) it is inferior.
2)none.

Nezmer · 2009-12-20 00:33:45

Well put wuischke indeed.

@hermes1908
Are you talking about Laptop/Desktop setup. If yes, you should know that the majority of users run the unstable/Sid branch. Sid in my experience was(used it until October 2008) unstable and uncomfortable to work with unless you really know all the workarounds and fallback tips. Stable is for servers or painless backup OS for Desktops/Laptops.

Some people will tell you that Testing is a middle ground between Stable & Sid and that's true from a repository hierarchy standpoint. But that's not necessarily reflected on stability. In my experience, some packages could be left broken for months in Testing. The rolling release nature of Sid usually prevents long-lasting breakages.

Package management tip:
Debian installs recommended dependencies by default. So don't be surprised If you run "apt install lxde" and then get hundreds of dependencies including Iceweasel(Debian's unbranded Firefox) and other unrelated dependencies.

hermes1908 · 2009-12-20 02:57:51

@tomk

1)
One of my motives is that I want to modify my hard-drive structure in a more convenient manner (partition wise). It would also be extremely time consuming to go through all of the unnecessary packages on my system its much faster to just reinstall a clean version of the distro.

2)
If I dual-boot I will know I will never end up using the other distro. I primarily use my system for experimentation It would be a pain to have to keep restarting to switch between distros. (and no vm is not an option either)

Re your specific questions:
1) it is inferior.

Care to elaborate?

Last edited by hermes1908 (2009-12-20 02:59:43)

linkmaster03 · 2009-12-20 03:22:57

hermes1908 wrote:

1) How does Debian compare to Archlinux in your opinion? (in terms of minimalism, package management, and community) (yes I have read the wiki I just want more opinions)

It's not bad. The package management is good, although slower and more confusing than pacman with all the -dev packages and different apt* binaries. Although, in my personal experience it seems that when you get in dependency troubles, you never get out. I guess I didn't update my ex-Debian machine as much as I should've, but still. I had aptitude telling me to uninstall just about everything (after a few hours of "Resolving depencies"), and it would error when I tried to proceed with what it wanted to do.

Aside from the dependency problem (which pushed me to install Arch on the machine ), I remember not being able to get much help on Debian's forums or IRC channel, so I just used the Ubuntu equivalents.

I suggest dual-booting Debian and Arch. You probably won't run into the same problems that I did on Debian as long as you update frequently.

Last edited by linkmaster03 (2009-12-20 03:23:11)

sHyLoCk · 2009-12-20 03:59:22

I don't want to argue here and tell you some cliches that you are already aware of. My personal experience: Debian never worked well for me. Starting from compiz, brasero to even sudden X freezes. And I am talking about the stable branch. However, debian sid has worked quite good for me.
So I have to ask you, why are you interested in debian?
Just for trying out something new? Go for it. It is a good practice to try out different distros and then settle down with one you are comfortable with. Most [actually all] of us did that.
If you are looking for a stable server distro, I'd suggest you CentOS or RHEL anyday. Thorughly tested and rock solid stability makes them perfect. Debian is also supposed to be a stable distro but hasn't been so for me, CentOS hasn't let me down.
If you are asking if Debian is better than Arch, then there can be no comparison made since both are targeted at different users and have different working philosophies.

Regards

fsckd · 2009-12-20 04:56:06

Nezmer wrote:

Some people will tell you that Testing is a middle ground between Stable & Sid and that's true from a repository hierarchy standpoint. But that's not necessarily reflected on stability. In my experience, some packages could be left broken for months in Testing. The rolling release nature of Sid usually prevents long-lasting breakages.

To expand on this, testing is fairly stable after it's 'frozen' but the updates are no longer fast and thick. If you choose sid but wish for greater stability then I suggest Siddux.

Nezmer wrote:

Package management tip:
Debian installs recommended dependencies by default. So don't be surprised If you run "apt install lxde" and then get hundreds of dependencies including Iceweasel(Debian's unbranded Firefox) and other unrelated dependencies.

It's not as extreme as Nezmer states. To prevent extraneous packages from being installed, in /etc/apt/apt.conf add the following two lines:
APT::Install-Recommends "false";
APT::Install-Suggests "false";

I second what sHyLoCk wrote. If you want to just try it, install it and see how it works. If you can't use a VM or dual-boot, why not try a chroot environment? While you won't get the full Debian experience, you can get a feel for how the package manager and basic configuration works. That's like most of the difference between Arch and Debian.

Also, one nice advantage of Debian is you can use packages from other distros including Ubuntu provided you take care of dependencies (and this isn't as hard as it sounds). I'll leave it to your imagination to figure out what that means.

Good luck, whatever you choose.

na12 · 2009-12-20 10:55:51

For Desktop better idea is to install Ubuntu from Ubuntu minimal install cd,and then you can add what you want,like in ArchLinux. Here is how to http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1155961

Lexion · 2009-12-20 12:14:51

Being an arch Linux adict, I'll try Debian in VirtualBox. It will give me something to do.... I'll tell you how it goes.

hokasch · 2009-12-20 12:34:48

Re "It would also be extremely time consuming to go through all of the unnecessary packages on my system":

I managed to clean out quite some long forgotten stuff with the help of pacgraph and pacman -Rs.

wuischke · 2009-12-20 13:14:25

OT:

hokasch wrote:

Re "It would also be extremely time consuming to go through all of the unnecessary packages on my system":
I managed to clean out quite some long forgotten stuff with the help of pacgraph and pacman -Rs.

Thanks for the tip, your comment made me clean up my system and pacgraph was a real help.

toad · 2009-12-20 13:30:31

Most of the pros and cons have already been stated and even Sidux has been mentioned. Another thing on the latter: it is also a rolling release and it serves me brilliantly on my laptop after arch f***** up on my ATI card. In terms of coming out first with a new package both arch and sidux are quick. Sometimes one is quicker, sometimes the other and it is fun to compare what they get up to

Gen2ly · 2009-12-20 13:59:43

HashBox wrote:

Nice script Gen2ly! I shall "steal" it for my ~/bin
Edit: You might want to change that /bin/sh to /bin/bash since dash doesn't seem to like '[[' among other things, just fyi

Hmm, good tip Hash. Hadn't thought about Ubuntu... doh!

Ranguvar · 2009-12-20 16:42:56

http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=70672

hermes1908 · 2009-12-20 20:29:59

Thanks for all the tips. You guys have been really helpful. Anyway I made the switch and so far things are running smoothly. Still getting used to the package management system (apt) and the install did take a bit longer than Arch (as i used netinst to setup a barebones system).

Lexion · 2009-12-22 00:39:59

I did the same in VirtualBox and found it to be nothing that I would be interested in. However, all the comments so far are more or less true. Sorry I'm late with the post.

hitest · 2009-12-28 03:28:15

I'm a new Arch user. I am thoroughly enjoying this OS.
My other OSs that I use are Slackware and FreeBSD. I was a long time Debian user. Debian is a very stable distro. The software in the stable branch can at times be very outdated. Debian is a good distro to explore.

Paingiver · 2009-12-28 13:04:53

I also suggest using aptitude. It is far better than apt-get. There was a lot of talk about this on Debian forums. Aptitude prove itself worthy

hermes1908 · 2010-01-25 05:17:29

Sorry to revive a dead thread, just wanted to let y'all know I'm back (as in using arch). The whole Debian afair was fun but in the end I found myself tired of using outdated (albeit stable) packages and began to miss the clean (bsd style) configuration. Not that I ever contributed much anyway (can't code for lama beans).

Thanks again for your support

--hermes1908

Last edited by hermes1908 (2010-01-25 05:18:50)

Kitty · 2010-01-25 06:03:41

Heh, they always come back.

whiteychs · 2010-01-25 08:41:21

I have Debian on my netbook. apt automates a lot of stuff and has some serious install scripts. It's seems nice at first, until you have to wade through levels of abstraction.

I would have nuked it in favor or slackware or arch... but I keep it for diversity.

Arch Linux

#1 2009-12-19 19:20:44

Debian Linux

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