Richard Stallman's Setup

Misfit138 · 2010-01-30 13:07:15

DrunkenMaster wrote:

But I think that we are both right and that's what makes this period interesting : can Unix be both a system for everyone and remain something hackers like to hack ? I see it sort of happening, with Ubuntu on one end and Slack, Arch and BSD on the other.

So far, I don't see it. But, that doesn't mean that I don't want it to happen!
Ubuntu forums are packed with *nix newbies who have issues from the installation onwards. I think that lots of these people who can run Windows perfectly fine, albeit with some viruses and reinstalls every so often, will just go back to it. I think this because of my personal experience with people I meet every day. As I mentioned above, most people I meet (I live in the U.S.) don't care or even know about FOSS or GNU and are just worried about whether they can play Battlefield 2 by popping in a CD, or if Photoshop or their webcam will work as expected. Wine is not an option for these people because it requires hacking and patience beyond their ability or willingness to learn.

I should also mention that I choose to use Arch on all my machines, and I admire Stallman and believe he does a lot of good things. (Somehow my FOSS proponency got lost within my message I think.)

DrunkenMaster · 2010-01-30 13:52:10

Misfit138 wrote:

So far, I don't see it. But, that doesn't mean that I don't want it to happen!
Ubuntu forums are packed with *nix newbies who have issues from the installation onwards. I think that lots of these people who can run Windows perfectly fine, albeit with some viruses and reinstalls every so often, will just go back to it.

This is also what I'm afraid to see. To be honest, the way I see it, the newbie-friendly Linux distros have it completely wrong. I think that by just copying the Windows way and not offering a fundamentally different experience is a big mistake. What's so compelling about using Linux if all you get is some kind of a Windows knock-off ? Besides, chasing after Windows is pathetic. But that's just my opinion and I may be proven absolutely wrong.

Misfit138 wrote:

I think this because of my personal experience with people I meet every day. As I mentioned above, most people I meet (I live in the U.S.) don't care or even know about FOSS or GNU and are just worried about whether they can play Battlefield 2 by popping in a CD, or if Photoshop or their webcam will work as expected. Wine is not an option for these people because it requires hacking and patience beyond their ability or willingness to learn.

It's true and I think it's more or less the same everywhere. But in the overall, hardware support really has improved over the years. A few years ago, installing Linux on a random PC would be quite an adventure and you were most likely to end up with only half of the peripherals working alright. Today, even though it's not perfect (far from it), it got much easier. It just takes much more time to achieve 80% compatibility than the Linux world thought ten years ago. We're getting there, though. Slowly.

Games, however, seem like a lost battle. The only hope lies in a default install of some good Wine wrapper, that would hold users' hand or, better yet, be completely transparent. I once thought that the Crossover thing was going to solve all that, but... Let's just say the task is impossible. The other solution, games designed for Linux, turned out to be even more difficult. I'm really impressed by LGP, how they thrive to port and produce new games.

Misfit138 wrote:

I should also mention that I choose to use Arch on all my machines, and I admire Stallman and believe he does a lot of good things. (Somehow my FOSS proponency got lost within my message I think.)

No no ! Well, not to me, at least.

Anikom15 · 2010-01-30 15:41:04

res wrote:

Anikom15 wrote:
...
ot, but I gotta say your posting style is the funniest. You always post terse, almost-brutal posts and never use smilies nor exclamation points. Very funny

That's what 4 years of GameFAQs does to you. . . .

xenofungus · 2010-01-30 16:13:12

DrunkenMaster wrote:

This is also what I'm afraid to see. To be honest, the way I see it, the newbie-friendly Linux distros have it completely wrong. I think that by just copying the Windows way and not offering a fundamentally different experience is a big mistake. What's so compelling about using Linux if all you get is some kind of a Windows knock-off ? Besides, chasing after Windows is pathetic. But that's just my opinion and I may be proven absolutely wrong.

I agree that copying windows is not the way to go, but sadly the average user doesn't rtfm and want to be able to use the computer anyway, using previous knowledge of the (windows) UI. I'm pretty sure this problem affects UI development in general.

But hey, we have several UIs to choose from.

Trent · 2010-01-30 16:29:09

I don't think Ubuntu, or most of the other newbie distros, are trying to copy Windows. They know that if they don't offer a compelling new experience they won't see growth from that direction. They are doing their best to take their respective distros in their own direction, and I think they're doing a good job -- they are, after all, seeing growth. Just because Ubuntu doesn't have 10% market share or more doesn't mean progress is not being made, especially in the areas of education: many more people know about, say, Linux now than did back in 2001 when MS had their strongest monopoly.

I think the greatest strength of Unix in consumer PCs comes from Apple. I used to talk smack about Macs, but recently I've decided that they're often the best choice for non-techies: no viruses, corporate support, flashy buttons, etc. I would buy one for my parents if they weren't so darned expensive!

DrunkenMaster · 2010-01-30 16:50:34

xenofungus wrote:

I agree that copying windows is not the way to go, but sadly the average user doesn't rtfm and want to be able to use the computer anyway, using previous knowledge of the (windows) UI. I'm pretty sure this problem affects UI development in general.

Definitely, yes. I mean, we are still using the computers today exactly as we have been for the last twenty years. To me, only NeXT tried to do something really different, and that's one of the reason the Macs are successful today : they offer a unique experience, that sets them apart from the rest. They don't copy Windows, they offer something different. When I see a Linux environment trying to copy Windows, I find it a bit sad, because it gives up what makes Unix different from Windows and instead tries to mimic the very interface that most of the Unix crowd find inferior. Instead of innovation, you get imitation.

But of course, the problem of the existing knowledge remains and weighs terribly on how you can design a UI.

xenofungus wrote:

But hey, we have several UIs to choose from.

Yes, thank God for that !

tlaloc · 2010-01-30 16:56:11

Anikom15 wrote:

[Censored]

This was really a low-point in this forum's history ....

I remember talking to a student about Linux a few years ago in Hamburg (opposite end of the planet, you see?). Since I do not like to proselytize, I just tried to convince her that computers do work with something not produced by Microsoft, and that everyone should decide for him/herself (this insight seemed to be restricted to CS students, and she and I were in the humanities). I started out with the "free as in beer" argument, and then planned to work my way gradually towards "free as in speach". Before I got to the second part, she exclaimed: "But it is for free anyways - noone really pays for it."

The bitter irony of this story is that she now makes a living by working for a human rights organization - and still, she wasn't able to see what was wrong by stealing a copy of Office 2007 or an entire OS. And it is even more ironic that I still like for her engagement and sense of justice (in other regards).

Anikom15 · 2010-01-30 16:58:47

I think Ubuntu would get more popular if they changed their color scheme.

Fedora's blue, Red Hat's red, Suse's green, Gentoo's purple, Slackware's blue, and Debian's a mix, so they should go with yellow or silver. Orange and brown, doesn't look good, and I'm not an eye candy person.

DrunkenMaster · 2010-01-30 17:04:30

Trent wrote:

I don't think Ubuntu, or most of the other newbie distros, are trying to copy Windows.

Well, when I bought my dell mini (which was a mistake, but that's another story), I had a look at what a modern Gnome desktop looks like. To me, it was really trying to look like Windows : same dialogs, same yellow bubbles, a start menu, a file explorer that looks more or less the same, etc. You get the idea. But maybe I'm wrong and I have not looked deep enough. I'm not used to Desktop Environments, I've never used one, I've only had a look from time to time. I'm just eager to see on the desktop what's happening online : different apps, from different shops, all communicating together and exchanging data, a bit like the services in NeXT.

Trent wrote:

They know that if they don't offer a compelling new experience they won't see growth from that direction. They are doing their best to take their respective distros in their own direction, and I think they're doing a good job -- they are, after all, seeing growth. Just because Ubuntu doesn't have 10% market share or more doesn't mean progress is not being made, especially in the areas of education: many more people know about, say, Linux now than did back in 2001 when MS had their strongest monopoly.

Yes, you're absolutely right. I'm just afraid that in the end, we only have two Windows-like systems, on FOSS, the other one closed-source. But again, maybe it's just me.

Trent wrote:

I think the greatest strength of Unix in consumer PCs comes from Apple. I used to talk smack about Macs, but recently I've decided that they're often the best choice for non-techies: no viruses, corporate support, flashy buttons, etc. I would buy one for my parents if they weren't so darned expensive!

I totally agree : Apple (and NeXT, again) have really understood how you can bring Unix to the desktop. And it's not just the UI, but the overall system (including the location-agnostic apps, for example). Too bad GNUstep never took off.

3]) · 2010-01-30 19:25:17

fsckd wrote:

3]) wrote:
To all those nay-sayers when it comes to the internet. Yes, it is useful to have the internet, but then again it is not good to be too dependent on the internet. Sometimes it's good to actually work instead of chat/browse/twitter etc... Internet really drags down productivity when uncontrolled. Just stop using the internet or limit it daily and life will seem so much longer as the days pass by slower. Finally you will notice that a second is quite a time!
However, only using the internet for email and a few other minor things does seem to be quite a step back.
Richard Stallman should try checking out some forums though, would be nice that he communicates with the users a bit more.
That is not interesting. This is interesting.
(Sorry, I don't mean to rail against you in particular. The whole "how often does he use the internet" conversation seems prudish to me.)

What he seems to do is basically the same that our web browsers do. Except, he does it the long way around.
Figures.

But yes, that is interesting!

ngoonee · 2010-01-30 23:18:05

Netsu wrote:

ngoonee wrote:
Misfit138 wrote:
A small minority pirate software too.
It is SO obvious you don't live on my side of the world .
Imagine trying to promote free software in a place where almost all software is considered 'free' in the financial sense.
Anikom15 wrote:
There's a lot of crap between Thailand and Singapore. Where are you?
Actually I'm surprised there are parts of the world where piracy is a minor issue, I think it's safe to say that EVERYONE pirates software in my country. I don't remember when was the last time I have seen a legit install of Windows, beside those that students get for free from Academic Alliance.
Nobody cares if it's a crime or not, it's like running across the street on red lights, you just remember not to do this around the police.

Similar to my country then.

@Anikom15, I'm in Malaysia. Though its no different in ANY of the countries nearby (or even on the continent I believe).

farvardin · 2010-02-03 11:54:13

I hope the power station which feeds Stallman's netbook is using free software and free hardware exclusively...

Peasantoid · 2010-02-03 12:38:29

farvardin wrote:

I hope the power station which feeds Stallman's netbook is using free software and free hardware exclusively...

A full hierarchy of exclusively free software is more or less an impossibility at this point. I would assume even rms knows that.

axel668 · 2010-02-03 14:08:38

farvardin wrote:

I hope the power station which feeds Stallman's netbook is using free software and free hardware exclusively...

Think he might produce the little power which that device needs with an opensource- design hamsterwheel

But honestly, it's important to have people like RMS, who constantly question and extend the limits of what's possible. When he startet creating GNU, I'm sure there were lots of people who said it would be impossible to re- implement all these tools, and even RMS himself probably had doubts if there would ever be a complete OS containing nothing but free software.

Today all this has become reality, and free BIOS and hardware specs will be as common as a linux install in a couple of years. RMS just tries to lead by example, and if he thinks 3" less screenspace is worth it, he's probably right, from his perspective.

OpenSource needs both, visionairies like RMS and pragmatists like Miguel de Icaza to be successful on the long run, while the truth for most of us lies somewhere in between ...

skanky · 2010-02-03 14:11:42

Look-up "Overton Window" to get an idea how important he is, even if you disagree with how far he goes.

lordmetroid · 2010-02-03 20:08:35

3]) wrote:

However, only using the internet for email and a few other minor things does seem to be quite a step back.
Richard Stallman should try checking out some forums though, would be nice that he communicates with the users a bit more.

He does use identi.ca I have seen his notices there a few times.

Snakeye · 2010-02-03 22:28:52

Yes we need visionaries and pragmatistss. Though i think there is a fine line between being pragmatic and collaborating recklessly with someone who has vowed to destroy you.

Misfit138 · 2010-02-04 16:14:53

Netsu wrote:

Actually I'm surprised there are parts of the world where piracy is a minor issue, I think it's safe to say that EVERYONE pirates software in my country. I don't remember when was the last time I have seen a legit install of Windows, beside those that students get for free from Academic Alliance.
Nobody cares if it's a crime or not, it's like running across the street on red lights, you just remember not to do this around the police.

In the U.S., a very small minority pirate software for a number of reasons:
1. Windows OS is ubiquitous; it comes preinstalled on nearly all PC's.
2. Proprietary enterprise software is provided by companies; the employees' machines have the software they need.
3. The advantages of being compliant with software licenses are nearly always worth the costs, especially to corporations.
As far as pirating games:
1. People who pirate games, especially online games, are a techie minority who enjoy the challenge of cracking more than the theft of software.
2. The cost of DL media for console piracy, as well as the time and savvy required to seek out the cracks/torrents/etc. is also kept to a minority of young techies with enough time on their hands and parental financial support to afford such activity.

3]) · 2010-02-04 17:46:10

lordmetroid wrote:

3]) wrote:
However, only using the internet for email and a few other minor things does seem to be quite a step back.
Richard Stallman should try checking out some forums though, would be nice that he communicates with the users a bit more.
He does use identi.ca I have seen his notices there a few times.

I have never heard of that site. Just checked it, microblogging, seems he lurks far deeper into the internet than the hardcore users themselves.

Trent · 2010-02-04 23:48:50

Misfit138 wrote:

Netsu wrote:
Actually I'm surprised there are parts of the world where piracy is a minor issue, I think it's safe to say that EVERYONE pirates software in my country. I don't remember when was the last time I have seen a legit install of Windows, beside those that students get for free from Academic Alliance.
Nobody cares if it's a crime or not, it's like running across the street on red lights, you just remember not to do this around the police.
In the U.S., a very small minority pirate software for a number of reasons:
1. Windows OS is ubiquitous; it comes preinstalled on nearly all PC's.
2. Proprietary enterprise software is provided by companies; the employees' machines have the software they need.
3. The advantages of being compliant with software licenses are nearly always worth the costs, especially to corporations.
As far as pirating games:
1. People who pirate games, especially online games, are a techie minority who enjoy the challenge of cracking more than the theft of software.
2. The cost of DL media for console piracy, as well as the time and savvy required to seek out the cracks/torrents/etc. is also kept to a minority of young techies with enough time on their hands and parental financial support to afford such activity.

I agree with the points, but I think the term "very small minority" may not convey a correct impression. To me nothing above, say, 5% is a very small minority (depending of course on what the topic is). I would say that piracy is much closer to 50%, even in the U.S. But of course we are basing our observations on what are probably very different populational cross-sections. Reliable numbers are impossible for obvious reasons, but the real rate is probably in between.

ngoonee · 2010-02-05 03:19:12

Yes, I think those who operate in the 'young nerds' level would see a VERY high rate of piracy compared to those who operate more on a corporate level (in a social context).

zowki · 2010-02-05 04:53:45

Please don't go off topic and talk about piracy or this might get moved to TGN. We are supposed to be discussing Richard Stallman here!

fsckd · 2010-02-05 05:38:14

Richard Stallman doesn't like the term piracy: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to- … tml#Piracy .

matty · 2010-02-05 08:44:59

If memory serves there was an extended period when RMS didn't even have a house, as such. He essentially lived in his office at MIT.

M

lordmetroid · 2010-02-05 12:14:34

Maybe he wanted a free and non-proprietary house...

Arch Linux

#76 2010-01-30 13:07:15

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#77 2010-01-30 13:52:10

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#78 2010-01-30 15:41:04

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#79 2010-01-30 16:13:12

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#80 2010-01-30 16:29:09

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#81 2010-01-30 16:50:34

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#82 2010-01-30 16:56:11

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#83 2010-01-30 16:58:47

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#84 2010-01-30 17:04:30

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#85 2010-01-30 19:25:17

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#86 2010-01-30 23:18:05

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#87 2010-02-03 11:54:13

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#88 2010-02-03 12:38:29

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#89 2010-02-03 14:08:38

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#90 2010-02-03 14:11:42

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#91 2010-02-03 20:08:35

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#92 2010-02-03 22:28:52

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#93 2010-02-04 16:14:53

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#94 2010-02-04 17:46:10

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#95 2010-02-04 23:48:50

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#96 2010-02-05 03:19:12

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#97 2010-02-05 04:53:45

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#98 2010-02-05 05:38:14

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#99 2010-02-05 08:44:59

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

#100 2010-02-05 12:14:34

Re: Richard Stallman's Setup

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