New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

piezoelectric · 2009-09-08 22:50:50

So I started a long time ago with Fedora, but have been with Ubuntu for about 3 years now. After some reading I think Arch is right for me. The biggest reason is that I feel I bastardize whatever distribution I'm using by trying to maintain the LATEST versions of certain applications; I really like the rolling release schedule. There are other reasons, but that is the biggest.

In any event, my first question:

I've been reading that DeviceKit is slowly replacing HAL, however I'm a little frightened as to what this will mean for me with a more DIY distribution like Archlinux. Do packages (like gnome) depend specifically on one and/or the other, or do they just need something that fills that specific role? Can I only have one safely on my system at a time?

Things like this worry me: http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Xor … _xorg.conf. I'll definitely be wanting Xorg, but can I use DeviceKit instead? Also, the articles says that Xorg depends on HAL, then shouldn't HAL have been installed when I installed xorg? I thought pacman did dependency handling (a reason why I chose Arch of Slackware in my hopes of becoming a little more of a hands-on linux user...).

el mariachi · 2009-09-08 23:29:59

I was going to post a question regarding devicekit too... is it safe to use devicekit and have hal installed (but not being started). Will the apps that still rely on hal work? (dumb question?)

Ranguvar · 2009-09-09 01:08:11

You can use X.Org without HAL. You just need to set up your own xorg.conf.

I have no clue about DeviceKit. It sounds neat, but I've heard little about it.

piezoelectric · 2009-09-09 01:12:02

Ranguvar wrote:

You can use X.Org without HAL. You just need to set up your own xorg.conf.
I have no clue about DeviceKit. It sounds neat, but I've heard little about it.

Ahh, Ok.

Does anyone know if xorg can get the same information from DeviceKit that it would from HAL? (I have an NVidia card, so it might be a moot point all-together. I've found that I still need to set up Xorg to get my monitors set up correctly anyway).

ammon · 2009-09-09 09:13:24

sudo abs
cp /var/abs/extra/xorg-server ~/abs
editor ~/abs/xorg-server/pkgbuild

and replace line 65 to

--disable-config-hal \

makepkg -s
sudo pacman -U xorg....

There you go, Xorg without hal. But you must have xorg.conf.
Devkit is used by gnome-power-manager, when it will be used by more programs and when will hal become obsolete... i dont know.

Andrwe · 2009-09-09 12:02:00

First, DevKit will replace Hal but that is still in future because first all programs relying on Hal have to be ported to DevKit otherwise it wouldn't be a replacement.

Second, you can without any problems run both, DevKit and Hal, at the same time because the programs itself decide which system they are using.
Well, they don't decide but the developer decided while writing the progs.

So no user have to care about the systems which are used by the programs they are using as long as they have the needed dependencies installed. Only the developer have to do their work and port their programs to the newer system but this comes while the time flows.

cecilyen · 2009-10-21 15:14:00

I found the upcoming Ubuntu 9.10 is going to use DeviceKit as default device management.
Ubuntu must have a good reason to do so.

But, the idea of HAL is quite abstract to me. There ain't much information on the wiki.
So, should I upgrade to devicekit and deprecate the hal?
Any benefit of doing this?

grey · 2009-10-21 16:12:04

"Good reason" in this context does not imply that it will not break your system.

tomk · 2009-10-21 17:18:47

cecilyen, unless you have a good reason not to, just use what the Arch devs give you. When they decide to make devkit the default, they will do it in the usual Arch way - all you have to do is keep on pacman -Syu'ing.

DonVla · 2009-10-29 15:24:13

Hi all!

What's actually the difference between HAL and DevKit?
IMO is DevKit more cryptic than HAL. And I have the impression HAL is more DE-agnostic than DevKit.
So is Xorg going to use DevKit too?

sctincman · 2009-10-29 15:58:21

DeviceKit is supposed to be a less redundant and simple replacement for HAL http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/h … 11560.html
The differences between the two? I think the mailing list entry above and the wikipedia touch on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeviceKit

But, as Andrwe said, it's a slow process as applications slowly move from one system to the next. I imagine it will be made possible to run both side by side to facilitate this.

My impression is that the DIY way would be to use Xorg without hal, as ammon showed :P Many archers seem to be displeased with HAL and the *Kits as it is http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=72154

DonVla wrote:

IMO is DevKit more cryptic than HAL. And I have the impression HAL is more DE-agnostic than DevKit.

I'm just curious where you got this impression. Wondering if there might have been something DeviceKit related I missed reading.

DonVla · 2009-10-29 17:11:51

sctincman wrote:

DonVla wrote:
IMO is DevKit more cryptic than HAL. And I have the impression HAL is more DE-agnostic than DevKit.
I'm just curious where you got this impression. Wondering if there might have been something DeviceKit related I missed reading.

HAL has xml files - DevKit has even more xml files

However, I have nothing against HAL.
I put Arch on an usb-stick and I am impressed how good the HAL auto-detection works.
In almost all cases it worked oob.

PS: I read a little about DevKit and it seems that it'll be a drop-in replacement for HAL, but with a more modular structure.
PPS: ...someday...

Last edited by DonVla (2009-10-29 17:14:06)

sctincman · 2009-10-30 00:02:37

DonVla wrote:

HAL has xml files - DevKit has even more xml files

I don't mean to be an instigator (I am really am just curious :P), but where'd you hear DeviceKit has more XML files?

I just did a quick

file `pacman -Qlq devicekit-power devicekit-disks` | grep XML | wc
file `pacman -Qlq hal hal-info` | grep XML | wc

and got 78 XML files for the HAL packages and only 7 for the DeviceKit packages (and those 7 in DeviceKit are all DBus/PolicyKit/GTKDoc config/policy/help files)

I don't know DeviceKit internals, but looking at the files installed and the dependencies, it looks as if it lets PolicyKit and udev control it by running /usr/lib/ scripts or daemons (as in devicekit-power) to do things.

I don't like mucking around in XML at all, but I do (did?) enjoy HAL, and have never had any problems, and from what I've seen, it looks like devicekit will be better all around.

edit: for comparison/completeness, 12 of HAL's XML files are GTKDoc/PolicyKit related :P

Last edited by sctincman (2009-10-30 00:05:37)

luisfpg · 2010-01-21 16:50:19

Just to point out: I've tried Ubuntu 10.04 alpha, which has completely dropped HAL in favor to DeviceKit.
The reasons pointed are that it boots faster. And indeed, the boot is perceivably faster.
I don't know if that's by DeviceKit, Upstart or both. But the boot time indeed reduced.
Anyway, I'll install Arch (again, after a few months) and was interested in the status of DeviceKit Support

Zyx · 2010-02-15 07:32:10

In my opinion the decision on creating DeviceKit is a very bad decision. Linux needs a reliable, stable API and system elements, and here we have a situation where one of the critical components is being replaced with an incompatible clone, because the author disliked something in the current one. If they really want to do this, at least they should provide something that seems to be stable, but today DeviceKit suffers from many problems. For over two months it made me almost impossible to use any of GTK application. "Open"/"Safe" dialogs did not work or it lasted forever to display even a single file, the CPU usage was reaching 90% just because of listing the directory contents (and it did not stop after killing the process), and the apps themselves simply crashed because of these all problems. Finally I discovered that it's DeviceKit fault, renamed the /usr/lib/DeviceKit directory, and everything is normal again. I don't want this all modularity, if it's going to work like that.

Arch Linux

#1 2009-09-08 22:50:50

New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#2 2009-09-08 23:29:59

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#3 2009-09-09 01:08:11

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#4 2009-09-09 01:12:02

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#5 2009-09-09 09:13:24

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#6 2009-09-09 12:02:00

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#7 2009-10-21 15:14:00

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#8 2009-10-21 16:12:04

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#9 2009-10-21 17:18:47

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#10 2009-10-29 15:24:13

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#11 2009-10-29 15:58:21

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#12 2009-10-29 17:11:51

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#13 2009-10-30 00:02:37

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#14 2010-01-21 16:50:19

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

#15 2010-02-15 07:32:10

Re: New to Arch - Question about HAL/DeviceKit

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