Ion3 dead?

freigeist · 2010-03-29 15:43:21

Hello all,
has been a long time that I've last posted here. But yesterday, when I reinstalled the Arch Linux x86_64 Edition on my notebook and (as usual) tried to install ion3, which has been my favorite windowmanager for years, I've seen an 404 while downloading the source. Fired up lynx to check what's going with the website and the main site is working but it seems that the whole tuomov directory has been removed from the server, the website, the downloads and the darcs repository.

I haven't followed the discussion about Tuomo since he changed the License and ion3 was removed from the repositories in Arch. But today I read this statement at wikipedia:

"Valkonen has implied in several mailing lists that he has become completely disillusioned with, if not openly hostile toward, the free software community in general. He plans to switch to developing strictly closed-source software for the Windows platform in the future, presumably following the stable release of the Ion3 branch. Subsequently the author has indeed given up on Linux and become a Windows user."

That's a really tough statement and I can't think about what the hell has frustrated him that much, because he really did a great job inventing the first tabbed window manager (pwm) and consequently implementing his ideas into ion.

I know that there are other ion3 users here in the community, so what do you think about what happened here? Does anyone know, whether the development will be taken over by another one or have we seen the last version? Will you switch to another tiling window manager and if so, which one will you choose? I took a deeper look at the "usual suspects" but none of them makes me feel "at home"...

JohannesSM64 · 2010-03-29 16:05:00

Noticed the same when I, for the first time, tried to install ion3 yesterday. (I'm gonna try all the manual tilers)
I've read some of his blog posts and his problems with FOSS and Linux seem to be about the "gnomification" as he calls it, the layers of abstraction, megafreeze model, and distro package maintainer monopoly on the software provided (and patches). I don't think he tried Arch
You can try Musca, Ratpoison and StumpWM, they're similar (except they don't have tabbing). The former is my favorite.

Daenyth · 2010-03-29 17:22:20

Good riddance to bad rubbish I say.

kmason · 2010-03-29 17:51:35

If you want both tabbed windows and tiling, you could try a tabbed stacked wm, with pytyle or something like that.

freigeist · 2010-03-29 17:54:24

Daenyth wrote:

Good riddance to bad rubbish I say.

Oooh? You always have the choice not to choose a program you don't like...if fvwm development would be dropped, I wouldn't care either but nevertheless you won't hear such a statement about it from me...whatever

Last edited by freigeist (2010-03-29 18:11:33)

rson451 · 2010-03-29 18:06:53

freigeist wrote:

Oooh? You always have the choice not to choose a program you don't like...if fvwm development would be dropped, I wouldn't care either but nevertheless you won't here such a statement about it from me...whatever

I don't think Daenyth's statement has anything to do with the software, but more about the author. There is a bit of bad history between the author and the Arch community. You can search the mainling list archives for more info.

freigeist · 2010-03-29 18:18:40

rson451 wrote:

I don't think Daenyth's statement has anything to do with the software, but more about the author. There is a bit of bad history between the author and the Arch community. You can search the mainling list archives for more info.

Ah, o.k.. Didn't understand that habit of Valkonen too...and if you read some of his last statements at his ion mailing list like this:

On 2009-09-01, Tuomo Valkonen <tuomov at iki.fi> wrote:
> It has come to this. Unless miracles happen, I don't think I will
> be using or working on Ion much anymore. Cygwin is a big pile of
> shit [1], with an even bigger pile of filth
Yesterday I was angry, today I'm miserable. I'm too much
alone with my thoughts; my anger and misery.
I'm feeling somewhat regretful for such angry words; no
I don't particularly like the guy and his strict discipline,
but I do not want to be a bitter old man hating and hated
by everybody, so I'll start by saying sorry here.

...too bad about a fine piece of software and an innovative concept.

Rasi · 2010-03-29 19:06:58

Btw, your homepage waits for new content for 2 years now

JohannesSM64 · 2010-03-29 19:07:54

kmason wrote:

If you want both tabbed windows and tiling, you could try a tabbed stacked wm, with pytyle or something like that.

AFAIK Pytyle doesn't have manual frame layouts, only automatic, so it's not really a replacement.

Last edited by JohannesSM64 (2010-03-29 19:09:33)

freigeist · 2010-03-29 19:14:40

Rasi wrote:

Btw, your homepage waits for new content for 2 years now

Yep...happened much during these 2 years, changed my employer two times, moved into a house and assisted my two sons growing up (both are in kindergarten now). Not much time for blogging left

freigeist · 2010-03-29 19:20:53

JohannesSM64 wrote:

kmason wrote:
If you want both tabbed windows and tiling, you could try a tabbed stacked wm, with pytyle or something like that.
AFAIK Pytyle doesn't have manual frame layouts, only automatic, so it's not really a replacement.

Tried awesome yesterday and it may be a replacement, xmonads requirement of haskell is to heavy for me. Dwm seems fine too, but I had some problems with full screen mode (e.g. mplayer).

thayer · 2010-03-29 19:24:57

The author (Tuomo, Valkonen or whoever) switched back to Windows several months ago and stated (more or less) that he had no intentions of coming back to Linux. I'd say that's the end of Ion unless someone forks it and continues on.

gazj · 2010-03-29 19:30:10

freigeist wrote:

JohannesSM64 wrote:
kmason wrote:
If you want both tabbed windows and tiling, you could try a tabbed stacked wm, with pytyle or something like that.
AFAIK Pytyle doesn't have manual frame layouts, only automatic, so it's not really a replacement.
Tried awesome yesterday and it may be a replacement, xmonads requirement of haskell is to heavy for me. Dwm seems fine too, but I had some problems with full screen mode (e.g. mplayer).

Everyone must think I spam this everywhere, but seriously have a look at the i3 window manager. It is extremly good.

From the homepage - http://i3.zekjur.net/

1. Write well readable, well documented code. Create additional documentation on how to extend i3 by explaining its internal workings.
This includes being modifyable by people who do know how to program but who are not necessarily familiar with all of X11's internals. That is, document why things happen and when they happen so that the user gets a picture of the whole process a Window Manager is responsible of by just reading the source code.
2. Use xcb as far as possible (it does not provide functions for some features yet, like XKB) instead of Xlib. xcb has a much cleaner API and should be faster in quite a lot of situations.
3. Implement Xinerama correctly, that is by assigning each workspace to a virtual screen. Especially make sure that attaching and detaching new monitors like video projectors works during operation and does the right thing.
4. Use the metaphor of a table for abstraction. You can create horizontal and vertical columns (in wmii, you can only create vertical columns). See the documentation for more information on how this works, it really is an important principle in i3. (TODO: documentation :-))
5. Implement a command mode, like in vim. You can easily combine multiple actions (like focusing, moving, snapping) by using the command mode.
6. Implement XRandR support for flipping monitors.
7. Do not use programs such as autoconf/automake for configuration and creating unreadable/broken makefiles. Instead, use a clean makefile which automatically enables/disables features for specific platforms. Also, document the dependencies properly, so that package maintainers have an easy job packaging i3.
8. Provide hooks/callbacks for other programs to integrate. Using this mechanism, one can easily extend i3 in whatever language, without ever touching the C code. Also, to communicate with a running i3 instance, messages can be sent.
This approach should be more lightweight than wmii's usage of the 9P filesystem. Furthermore, core functionality does not depend on a separate program, so that i3 runs faster, especially when your system is under load.
9. Be UTF-8 clean.
10. The usual elitism amongst minimal window managers: Don't be bloated, don't be fancy (simple borders are the most decoration we want to have), don't add support for Xft and blurred fonts.
However, we do not enforce unnecessary limits such as a maximum amount of source lines of code. If it needs to be a bit bigger, it will be.

dolby · 2010-03-29 20:53:44

rson451 wrote:

freigeist wrote:
Oooh? You always have the choice not to choose a program you don't like...if fvwm development would be dropped, I wouldn't care either but nevertheless you won't here such a statement about it from me...whatever
I don't think Daenyth's statement has anything to do with the software, but more about the author. There is a bit of bad history between the author and the Arch community. You can search the mainling list archives for more info.

Its much easier to blame a single person who btw has been maintain an innovative piece of software for over a decade than the numerous free software fascists from Debian who distributed broken pieces of it and eventually lead him to actually hate the entire free software (read: Linux) movement.

This might also sound familiar: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html

milomouse · 2010-03-29 21:10:50

Oh man, I love ion. I'm just glad I made another build somewhat recently from darcs (2010-03-06), for x86_64, which I still have my built package and also the uncompiled and compiled source folders for.

I can't say I've tried too many window-managers like it though. I have tried i3 and it does seem pretty close though of course not everything is there. I didn't try it for very long though. The thing I liked about ion was you could quickly maximize a frame vertically/horizontally and bring it back to normal by issuing the same command. Scratchpads are nice too, but I know others have this feature as well. I never did the floating aspect of it though. Tiling all the way. There's so much more though. I used to rave about ion but at the same time it offered way more than I needed. I do enjoy adding my own scripts to it though, that's always a good learning experience.

rson451 · 2010-03-29 21:22:57

dolby wrote:

Its much easier to blame a single person who btw has been maintain an innovative piece of software for over a decade than the numerous free software fascists from Debian who distributed broken pieces of it and eventually lead him to actually hate the entire free software (read: Linux) movement.
This might also sound familiar: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html

I blame no one. I simply stated that there was history here. As a matter of fact, I've been looking for a tarball of the latest available ion source since this morning because I actually want to try this innovative piece of software myself.

milomouse · 2010-03-29 21:50:23

Not sure if I'm "allowed" but here's the untouched source from darcs dating 2010-03-06, and also my pre-built x86_64 pkg. http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=b9e9 … 0c2f906379
Sorry, I don't have my own server so MediaFire will have to do for now. Not sure how long MediaFire keeps them.
Here's my md5sums if that matters.

» md5sum ion-3-darcs-20100306-1-x86_64.pkg.tar.gz 
b00e3edffa9f25e9b00ea00866143db1  ion-3-darcs-20100306-1-x86_64.pkg.tar.gz
» md5sum ion3plus-source.tar 
d1f35d3547c882c83b352c948dca3142  ion3plus-source.tar

PKGBUILD from AUR: http://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=29423 Just comment the stuff about contacting darcs, I guess.

Edit: Oh yeah, and it's ~/.ion3plus for your configs with the darcs build. Examples of mine (certainly not default stuff) http://github.com/milomouse/dotfiles/tr … .ion3plus/

Last edited by milomouse (2010-03-29 21:52:56)

Peasantoid · 2010-03-29 22:09:27

So that people do not need to use the horrid MediaFire (MF stands for something else, you know), mirrored.

http://3p.peasantoid.org/ion3plus-src.tar.gz

Last edited by Peasantoid (2010-03-29 22:41:55)

dolby · 2010-03-29 22:29:37

rson451 wrote:

dolby wrote:
Its much easier to blame a single person who btw has been maintain an innovative piece of software for over a decade than the numerous free software fascists from Debian who distributed broken pieces of it and eventually lead him to actually hate the entire free software (read: Linux) movement.
This might also sound familiar: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html
I blame no one. I simply stated that there was history here. As a matter of fact, I've been looking for a tarball of the latest available ion source since this morning because I actually want to try this innovative piece of software myself.

Yeah my comment wasnt meant at you for the most part but Daenyth's reply.
If the archives are available they should reveal that there was a history prior to the discussion that went on the Arch lists..
PS. The Ion site was a great resource of articles as well. Hopefully its archived somewhere over the net.

KimTjik · 2010-03-29 22:30:09

dolby wrote:

This might also sound familiar: http://cdrecord.berlios.de/private/cdrecord.html

That's something I've never noticed. AUR has the original set, but I have to look into it to understand what it's all about.

milomouse · 2010-03-30 00:14:04

Peasantoid wrote:

So that people do not need to use the horrid MediaFire (MF stands for something else, you know), mirrored.
http://3p.peasantoid.org/ion3plus-src.tar.gz

Thanks

EDIT: I don't have the whole site archived, just the scripts, statusd*, statusbar, look_*, keybindings page/files. I used to have the whole site but I guess I deleted the stuff I didn't need to read anymore, which of course I regret now.

Last edited by milomouse (2010-03-30 00:23:10)

cesura · 2010-03-30 01:49:16

I recently read up on this guy. He seems like a total ****. Not just with Arch. NetBSD and FreeBSD had to deal with him

EDIT: And debian

Last edited by cesura (2010-03-30 01:51:29)

lasu1 · 2010-03-30 02:49:14

gazj wrote:

Everyone must think I spam this everywhere, but seriously have a look at the i3 window manager. It is extremly good.

I second this. I really like i3. It's clean, simple, clear-cut and pretty easy to use. The config files, especially, are easy to understand and edit.

gwash · 2010-03-30 23:38:31

freigeist wrote:

Tried awesome yesterday and it may be a replacement, xmonads requirement of haskell is to heavy for me. Dwm seems fine too, but I had some problems with full screen mode (e.g. mplayer).

Please, tell us how that went, I'm still very reluctant to leave ion

Army · 2010-03-31 07:32:11

gazj wrote:

Everyone must think I spam this everywhere, but seriously have a look at the i3 window manager. It is extremly good.

+1 for this!

Yesterday i3 moved into community, so you can give it a try without any hassle. I use this WM as tabbed WM, which can be achieved by adding

new_container tabbed

to the ~/.i3/config

Arch Linux

#1 2010-03-29 15:43:21

Ion3 dead?

#2 2010-03-29 16:05:00

Re: Ion3 dead?

#3 2010-03-29 17:22:20

Re: Ion3 dead?

#4 2010-03-29 17:51:35

Re: Ion3 dead?

#5 2010-03-29 17:54:24

Re: Ion3 dead?

#6 2010-03-29 18:06:53

Re: Ion3 dead?

#7 2010-03-29 18:18:40

Re: Ion3 dead?

#8 2010-03-29 19:06:58

Re: Ion3 dead?

#9 2010-03-29 19:07:54

Re: Ion3 dead?

#10 2010-03-29 19:14:40

Re: Ion3 dead?

#11 2010-03-29 19:20:53

Re: Ion3 dead?

#12 2010-03-29 19:24:57

Re: Ion3 dead?

#13 2010-03-29 19:30:10

Re: Ion3 dead?

#14 2010-03-29 20:53:44

Re: Ion3 dead?

#15 2010-03-29 21:10:50

Re: Ion3 dead?

#16 2010-03-29 21:22:57

Re: Ion3 dead?

#17 2010-03-29 21:50:23

Re: Ion3 dead?

#18 2010-03-29 22:09:27

Re: Ion3 dead?

#19 2010-03-29 22:29:37

Re: Ion3 dead?

#20 2010-03-29 22:30:09

Re: Ion3 dead?

#21 2010-03-30 00:14:04

Re: Ion3 dead?

#22 2010-03-30 01:49:16

Re: Ion3 dead?

#23 2010-03-30 02:49:14

Re: Ion3 dead?

#24 2010-03-30 23:38:31

Re: Ion3 dead?

#25 2010-03-31 07:32:11

Re: Ion3 dead?

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