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#1 2005-04-04 14:44:12

dp
Member
From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,363
Website

brave new world

the atmosphäre in this forums is not that good as it was some years ago ...

... it takes more time to read the forums and stay informed

... because there are more "you're stupid! <-> no you are!" discussions around

the consequence i'm taking:
untill now i read the forums and tried to help anyone i see with a problem i know (or may guess) a solution. tihs also others did and our community was one of the most friendly around. people spoke around that archers are friendly, fast and competent.

for the next few weeks i will go on distance and use the forum only for my own purposes (e.g. searching for informations) ... then, i will check if the atmosphäre changed to better and if not, i will continue untill unknown ignoring this forums.

what this means for you:

- if you have an interesting PKGBUILD that i might have seen in the forums but didn't because i'm not any more reading the forums, feel free to contact me per email ... especially if these pkgs have to do something about multimedia or science i'm interested in them

- if you have information/kriticism/feedback for any of my pkgs, contact me per email (discussions about amarok or other pkgs that i may miss in the forums ++)

- if you need help about linux and archlinux, you run into a problem or what ever, i hope that there are still enough contributors in this forums to answer your questions. if not (as if the atmosphäre is bad, people will stop spending time in it) then you should think about starting to make the atmospäre better by stopping destructive and unproductive discussions in the roots by explaining the poster (pm or reply to post) that this is not the place for flame or hoax or destructive messages (oppinions are not destructive, as long as they are not against people - they may be against actions people did but they should not be against people per se)


this subject is discussed in other threads ...

... what i see as a bad solution is adding more mods: the reason: if you have more mods you are not doing prevention but trying to keep the illness under control. this strategy never worked and never will ... it is almost a natural law ... e.g. in the usa, everybody has a gun and there are a lot of police and i-don-t-know-what per number of citisens but the problem is not solved (instead the jails are full) ... also it is wrong that citisen do self-justice. the key (european way, canadian way, ...) is prevention by acting as a healthy community (i heared that in canada people do not walk around with guns and are in general more friendly to others). what i mean is difficult to explain: ... but on examples it may be possible:

- if you see a destructive post ("arch is bad" - "arch devs are  ..." ...) where you think that this may end in a bad way, post your observance in this post asking the person who started it what the intention was. in off-topic, you may have "fun" as intention but if it is mischievousness and not fun for all people involved, then it is no fun. use common sense do decide! then, if this person is reasonable, the community then can turn such discussions into productive discussions. if not, pm a mod for help (but not before). --- maybe this is the wrong way, but having 100 mods does not help, that i will guarantee you!

good luck turning this forum back to productivity!

Damir

damir@archlinux.org

PS
i continued to write on the "survival guide to (arch)linux" and as soon as some chapters are usable, i will put it online.
because i don't want any discussion around this thread to start, i will lock it - do NOT unlock or delete it, please! thank you!


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#2 2005-04-07 17:26:25

dp
Member
From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,363
Website

Re: brave new world

update:
it seems that the atmosphäre calmed down a little ... and i see new things appear in the forums. change is always a good sign while under pressure growing.

i unlocked this thread now free for discussion/comments ... let's see how it develops

btw: thank you all who contacted me and supported my observations and enhanced them with theirs. what i see is that there ARE a lot of productive people around in this forums that know the value of forums - and this is very promising. if the rate of such people stays high enough, this community will be able to survive growing pains


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#3 2005-04-07 18:36:29

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: brave new world

hooray, dp is back!

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#4 2005-04-07 22:16:37

zeppelin
Member
From: Athens, Greece
Registered: 2004-03-05
Posts: 807
Website

Re: brave new world

wb dp

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#5 2005-04-07 23:35:26

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 464

Re: brave new world

o/

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#6 2005-04-09 03:55:31

neotuli
Lazy Developer
From: San Francisco, CA
Registered: 2004-07-06
Posts: 1,201
Website

Re: brave new world

I'm going to just put my 2 cents here..fork it to a new thread if need be.
Essentially, I agree with dp, and observed the same over a much longer course of time. Since December,  I have been bogged down with various work, and was not able to read these forums as often as I usually do, and also not able to do the usual things I do relating to Arch. When I returned to the scene in earnest a few weeks ago, I found something entirly different from what I had left behind. What I found was pretty much what dp describes, and for a while, it really disappointed me, and it still does for that matter.
What I am finding is that there are many threads still here that have been answered in a wiki or docs or google, so in part, it is the poster's fault for not looking in all the obvious places first. Also in part, it is the responder's fault for responding in ways that are not appropriate for maintaining the friendly, efficient, environment we have here. Yet another factor contributing to the problem is, yes, the moderators. I feel that hastily locking flame threads is perhaps not the right option, instead let the fire run out of fuel thouroughly, PM the parties involved letting them know that they are out of bounds, and when the fire dies down, quietly delete the thread so it doesn't leave pollution in our forums. Of course, this needs to be limited to reasonable cases, obviously 8 or 9 pages worth of flame is overkill in any situation and should be brought under control, but I think the smaller fires should be allowed to extinguish themselves as I described.
We need to find a *new* (I don't like any existing solutions that I've seen) and innovative way to balance these various factors and deal with the new (and old) members of our community.
One suggestion that I saw and, with some thought, agree with, would be making it so that there is one portion of the forums where everyone with <X posts may post, they cannot post anywhere else. X would ideally be a medium sized number, I'm thinking 50-75. Or maybe even tier it like 0-20 in one section 20-50, then 50-150 and 150+ would have access to all. I think this approach has a number of advantages as far as controlling the evolution of the forum community in that it provides a slower transition from newcomer to "old-timer" and so as new people come, they get to slowly adjust into the existing arch culture rather than getting thrown right into it, and disturbing the appearantly delicate balance that exists within it. Basically, the idea works a bit like lane lines in a pool do against ripples on the water. Tossing a stone into one lane will disturb the water such that the lane line may bob, and so the other lane is slightly effected, but the largest ripples won't reach any other lanes but the one you tossed the rock into. And the further lanes will get even less, maybe no effects.
Just my thoughts on isolating or containing the turbulent waters that have recently been seen on these forums.


The suggestion box only accepts patches.

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#7 2005-04-09 13:24:06

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 464

Re: brave new world

Moderate Moderation, as you suggest, sounds the best way forward. No point stamping on everything, causes more trouble than it quells.

Re: restrictive posting areas, age is no guarantee of wisdom.

There are many Linux oldtimers, on here, but new to Arch.
Should they be restricted to posting in newbie forums ?

Likewise there are people that will post one word replies to stuff, or a smiley, or a remark on a remark on a remark. which bumps up a score total of posts. Pissing contest i think it was called.

Should these people get access to the deeper stuff on account they are more prolific posters?

Maybe the current Admins/mods could invite users that they feel to be mature and responsible enough, on merits seen, to be an anonymous Forum Helper.
Anonymous so that we dont get the "why didnt i get chosen - he's just an <generic insult> type user" type of bickering. 

Helpers could maybe be the first line of defence in oiling the cogs, thus letting Devs/coders/Package maintainers do what they are best at, not fence mending or  tending the playground weeding out nuisance makers.

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#8 2005-04-09 13:41:42

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: brave new world

What difference does a name make?
Can you not be a "forum helper" now?
Is there some barrier preventing this?


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#9 2005-04-09 14:27:09

rasat
Forum Fellow
From: Finland, working in Romania
Registered: 2002-12-27
Posts: 2,176
Website

Re: brave new world

I think it helps a lot when having a name when doing a work of moderator, package manager, developer, helper, mentor, etc.

In my 20 years of organizing people, a name (title) not only have an impact on the user him/herself but people around him/her. No doubt, the title can also be misutilized. So, names cannot be distributed just like that.

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#10 2005-04-09 14:43:46

Mr Green
Forum Fellow
From: U.K.
Registered: 2003-12-21
Posts: 5,750

Re: brave new world

cactus wrote:

What difference does a name make?
Can you not be a "forum helper" now?
Is there some barrier preventing this?

Tried mate guess I'm not up to job ;-(


Mr Green

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#11 2005-04-23 18:30:18

sarah31
Member
From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
Website

Re: brave new world

Moderation works best if has been practised all along which it has not in this forum. Too many people, myself included, have got away with too much crap and feel offended if moderation is practised now. Rules need to be solidly enforced and if it means getting in the face of the forum user and doing alot of locking and such then that is what is needed. Mods should not give in to anything but the rules.

If the rules are closely followed people will learn and modding chores will diminish. When people know they cannot get away with BS they will either fork off or calm down.

All imo from my experience on lots of forums.


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#12 2005-04-23 19:16:49

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: brave new world

The difference between you and others is that your problem is that how you say things may offend people (because they, of course, misread it and/or take it way too personal), not really what you say, while the real problems are those people saying thing which shouldn't be said.


The impact of the name/title for me is near zero, as I don't even remember it (I tend to forget unimportant details rather easily). Hopefully it has a good effect to the people around me, who knows...

Though since I have some moderation powers I am more careful with what I say and do (the edit button is way too close the quote one).

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#13 2005-04-23 19:55:09

sarah31
Member
From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
Website

Re: brave new world

sure and that is why you may have to go through phases of enforcing the rules "too much". Things go in cycles but to restrict moderation to rare cases is just not good either. I personally find it just as frustrating to use either over moderated or under moderated boards. If you enforce the rules fairly and when needed then abuse is rare.

Some forums even have unmoderated sections and refer all jackasses and hot heads to that section. THAT is under moderating as it does not cut off the problem at the roots.

BTW there is no difference between me and others. I have gone way too far many times and have mistaken things typed here many times. Why do you think many people don't like me and even more were entertained by my postings? Becase I often pushed the envelop or even broke it.


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#14 2005-04-23 21:06:02

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: brave new world

sarah31:
There are a few new things that occured in your absense. Lately, there has been an attempt to make forum etiquette a bit more clear, and allow for the enforcement of the etiquette guidelines to be a bit easier on the mod team, and easier for the community. And by easier I mean, it will be a bit more apparent when a post/topic has crossed the line, when viewed against said guidelines.
http://wiki2.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum%20Etiquette

To anyone:
Moderation is sometimes a slow process. The mod team generally likes to discuss certains things as a team before proceeding with major issues. A safegaurd against unfairness, and an attempt to maintain a collectively "cool headed" composure.

As always, if anyone has input about how to make the forums better, make moderation easier, or anything else regarding forum administrativa, please feel free to PM a member of the moderation team with your ideas. We will try our best to consider the ideas brought to us. As always will not discuss your opinions/ideas in the open forums without your consent.

Thanks.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#15 2005-04-24 11:50:00

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: brave new world

Thread split up, the discussion with Sarah31 can be found here.

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