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#1 2003-10-20 15:32:03

hollywoodb
Member
From: USA
Registered: 2003-10-03
Posts: 39

new kernel releases and arch linux ......

As the new kernel releases seem to be doing away with the devfs, how will this affect arch (and other distros) ?  many of my apps rely on things like /dev/psaux /dev/dsp, etc.... I recently tested out the latest 2.6.0-test, and although it was much faster on my system, with a much nicer xconfig, will I even be able to use it without enabling the devfs functionality?

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#2 2003-10-20 17:13:43

sarah31
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From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
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Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

devfs support is still in the 2.6 kernels though it is marked as obsolete. when it is finally phased out i don't expect arch will have any trouble using its replacement as it is essentisly just a reworked devfs.


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#3 2003-10-20 18:47:50

marin_linuxer
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From: San Rafael, CA U.S.A.
Registered: 2003-09-03
Posts: 111
Website

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

Can anyone point me to a tech-note/whitepaper on the new replacement for DEVFS?  I was just begining to _somewhat_ wrap my mind around the functions of the current and I would love to get a head-start on the replacement.

Thanx.


-- Linux!  Isn't it time?

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#4 2003-10-20 19:19:29

dp
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From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,363
Website

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#5 2003-10-20 20:09:08

contrasutra
Member
From: New Jersey
Registered: 2003-07-26
Posts: 507

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

Nows a good time for this (again):

I think we should do away completly with DevFS/UDEV.

It simply causes incompatabilities, and its benifits are very slim.

So please phase it out.  :cry:


"Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology.  Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat."

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#6 2003-10-20 20:20:51

Xentac
Forum Fellow
From: Victoria, BC
Registered: 2003-01-17
Posts: 1,797
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Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

contrasutra wrote:

It simply causes incompatabilities, and its benifits are very slim.

Bwahaha!  I fear change.  Boohoo.  Look at me cry.  I don't understand something, leave it the way it is!

Compatibility wise devfs does exactly the same thing that a non-devfs (traditional?) dev filesystem does.  The difference is that the devices say, "I need a device file", instead of just sitting and waiting for something to access a device file with a major minor combination that it owns.

Once configured correctly it will work exactly the same as a regular dev filesystem.


I have discovered that all of mans unhappiness derives from only one source, not being able to sit quietly in a room
- Blaise Pascal

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#7 2003-10-20 20:29:26

terrapin
Member
From: Lockport, IL
Registered: 2003-08-06
Posts: 104

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

I agree with contrasutra that nows a good time to reevaluate DevFS/UDEV support for future releases.

Nothing against DevFS or UDEV but they seem to cause major issues for people trying out Arch.  How many times have we seen topics that someone can't configure their boot loader or access some partition because they don't understand DevFS.

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#8 2003-10-20 20:54:52

sarah31
Member
From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
Website

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

well devfs is presnet in many distros actually. it appears as though mandrake uses it (not completely sure) gentoo uses it. crux, and others.

personally i have never had issue with it except my own misunderstanding of it. i have a variety of hardware in three different computers and nary a one has issues with devfs. the problems i have had with devices have all boiled down to buggy software or crappy kernel modules (for example the usb scanner module in the kernel did not work for me until 2.4.20 even though it *should* have worked).

i had printer issues but that boiled down to cups not wanting to work for the firstime ever for me. no big issue...i just made lprng packages. all i have ever read here about device issues usually boils down to getting the setting in devfs correct not the functionality of devfs.

more documentation of the various device issues and their resolutions is needed.

commonly here at arch linux part of the trouble is that many of the people here have no experience with some of the devices which have had issues.


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#9 2003-10-21 03:14:30

Jagged
Member
From: Blacksburg, VA
Registered: 2003-07-18
Posts: 153

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

to go along contrasutra's lines

i love devfs, i have had absolutely no problems with it (tv tuner, usb scanner, usb printer, usb gamepad, usb webcam, gameport joystick, tmpfs, ramdisks, software raid)  all of that has worked without a hitch in terms of devfs

therefore we must keep it  roll


Nkawtg...n!

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#10 2003-10-21 18:22:55

dp
Member
From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,363
Website

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

udev (or now: devfs) or not?
###################
as a biology student i will try to give you an example from evolution of species (very much addapted; not really scientifically told, but i hope nice to read), just to show you what means "changing things" / "advance" (german speakers: the word i mean: Fortschritt):

there were fish in the ocean about some hundert milion years ago, they lived happily and didnt bother to try moving differently than to swimm around ... it's easy to swimm around, because you do not have to worry about gravitation that much (/dev, the old system, the classical way)

then some fish started to think differently ... they were in search for better food places and wanted to outside the water ... this meant automatically they had to change some elementary features they had: they must change their respriation and learn to walk

after some milion years, they managed to evolve (by  chance and selection) a system to walk on land and breath air ... now (they decided to call them reptiles, not longer fish) they populated regions that suit them (because they are addapted --- by chance and selection over generations); but the easy way of moving (=swimming) they cannot longer use; they just changed it a little and now they are walking on 4 feet, but the movement is like fish move (movement of backbone) (devfs ... a great, but not optimal and 100% compatible system to the old statical /dev)

well, as an animal, if you go hunting on land, you must be able to walk fast and use the less energy the possible ... a mammal animal is walking much more efficient than a reptile ... becaues it decided to "rewrite the code for its walking apparatus" (udev)

-> there are still fish in the waters: statical /dev is a solid system, that aged a little bit (hotplug ...)

-> there are still reptiles there: devfs is still also available in 2.6.0tX (because of compatiblity reasons)

-> there are a lot of mammalia there: udev is in developement

// by the way: human being (mammalia)  is destroying fish and reptilia; why fish and reptilia have no chance to defend them is: they are running the old system wink

conclusion:
if you are changing to new systems, you are in fear that it is not longer compatible with the old; not that good as the old and you are afraid to think different and learn new things (that's normal; dont worry that you are afraid of change or future ... this is the nature of human beings),

but

the new system is ... newer, more flexible (as it is mostly addapted to the time it is build in), often better, more unstable than the older working one, but developing to a much more usefull one

saying generally "NO" is not a good idea ... -> have a look; keep the old system working; and switch definitely when the time has come

what i think about archlinux and new things: arch is running the newest (stable) libs, the newest (stable) progs and it should base on the newest (working) technologies ... and be always open to new things to the future

hope you enjoyed the little story :-)


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#11 2003-10-21 19:37:29

kakabaratruskia
Member
From: Santiago, Chile
Registered: 2003-08-24
Posts: 596

Re: new kernel releases and arch linux ......

ehh....sure..


And where were all the sportsmen who always pulled you though?
They're all resting down in Cornwall
writing up their memoirs for a paper-back edition
of the Boy Scout Manual.

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