You are not logged in.

#1 2011-03-25 10:43:58

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

[Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

I'm wondering why Firefox in Arch has the official branding again, with the release of 4.0. I liked it without the branding. But I'm also just curious what's up with the change.

Last edited by cb474 (2011-03-28 00:58:45)

Offline

#2 2011-03-25 11:10:18

metre
Member
Registered: 2011-03-13
Posts: 130

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

Offline

#3 2011-03-25 11:16:25

wonder
Developer
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 5,937
Website

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

branding has been enabled because unofficial branding lacks love. It's all branded as nightly and you have a huge button saying Mozilla Developer Preview instead of Firefox or codename, like in the previews versions.

Mozilla Developer Preview would start conversations about our versiune of firefox, if is unstable or stable.

Last edited by wonder (2011-03-25 11:18:39)


Give what you have. To someone, it may be better than you dare to think.
Blog

Offline

#4 2011-03-25 11:35:23

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 6,838

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

While I certainly don't mind Firefox actually being called firefox, does this open Arch to complaints from Mozilla?


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

Offline

#5 2011-03-25 11:47:07

wonder
Developer
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 5,937
Website

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

ngoonee wrote:

While I certainly don't mind Firefox actually being called firefox, does this open Arch to complaints from Mozilla?

no


Give what you have. To someone, it may be better than you dare to think.
Blog

Offline

#6 2011-03-25 14:18:16

Lone_Wolf
Member
From: Netherlands, Europe
Registered: 2005-10-04
Posts: 4,306

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

@ Wonder and other developers :

if i recall correctly archlinux changed to the firefox community version because of issues with the licenses that come with firefox.

The main problem was that any patches archlinux applied were only allowed to be used AFTER they had been approved by Mozilla.
For every change in the patches, a new approval was needed.
see this thread :   https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=25541

What has changed ?


Booting with apg Openrc, NOT systemd.
Automounting : not needed, i prefer pmount
Aur helpers : makepkg + my own local repo === rarely need them

Offline

#7 2011-03-25 14:26:09

wonder
Developer
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 5,937
Website

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

no.


Give what you have. To someone, it may be better than you dare to think.
Blog

Offline

#8 2011-03-25 15:20:53

Ramses de Norre
Member
From: Leuven - Belgium
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 1,289

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

Hmm, that wasn't a yes/no question...

Offline

#9 2011-03-25 15:28:34

moljac024
Member
From: Serbia
Registered: 2008-01-29
Posts: 2,676

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

Ramses de Norre wrote:

Hmm, that wasn't a yes/no question...

no


The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But if they tell you that I've lost my mind, maybe it's not gone just a little hard to find...

Offline

#10 2011-03-25 16:13:01

anonymous_user
Member
Registered: 2009-08-28
Posts: 3,058

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

So will future Firefox packages keep the branding or is this one-time only?

Offline

#11 2011-03-26 08:04:19

schivmeister
Developer/TU
From: Singapore
Registered: 2007-05-17
Posts: 971
Website

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

Ramses de Norre wrote:

Hmm, that wasn't a yes/no question...

I suppose he was referring to your belief that it was a license issue.


I need real, proper pen and paper for this.

Offline

#12 2011-03-26 12:33:59

Ramses de Norre
Member
From: Leuven - Belgium
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 1,289

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

schivmeister wrote:
Ramses de Norre wrote:

Hmm, that wasn't a yes/no question...

I suppose he was referring to your belief that it was a license issue.

It wasn't my belief, but I do am interested in what changed. Could someone elaborate a bit? Do the devs just refrain from patching now or did mozilla change its policy? I googled a bit but all the mozilla terminology and legal stuff is quite confusing and the documents I did found still state that only the official builds may use the firefox name and artwork.

Offline

#13 2011-03-26 13:30:23

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 6,838

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

Ramses de Norre wrote:
schivmeister wrote:
Ramses de Norre wrote:

Hmm, that wasn't a yes/no question...

I suppose he was referring to your belief that it was a license issue.

It wasn't my belief, but I do am interested in what changed. Could someone elaborate a bit? Do the devs just refrain from patching now or did mozilla change its policy? I googled a bit but all the mozilla terminology and legal stuff is quite confusing and the documents I did found still state that only the official builds may use the firefox name and artwork.

I *think* it just became too inconvenient to follow the licensing policy. If mozilla complains I'm sure something would get done about it, but as long as they don't, no problem.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

Offline

#14 2011-03-26 14:11:16

lives2evil
Member
From: GMT+7
Registered: 2010-03-21
Posts: 244

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

Somehow I understand this "NO" with a different meaning.
I think Archlinux's firefox version 3 actually doesn't contain any patch at all, so it's possible to keep the official branding with firefox3 but the developers want to use the unofficial branding version instead.
And now, for firefox4 they use official branding because:

wonder wrote:

branding has been enabled because unofficial branding lacks love. It's all branded as nightly and you have a huge button saying Mozilla Developer Preview instead of Firefox or codename, like in the previews versions.

So basically if this didn't happen, official branding won't be enabled at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong big_smile

Last edited by lives2evil (2011-03-26 14:11:30)


tsujeruplive, tnarongisi... ... ... ... ɥsılƃuǝ sı sıɥʇ

Offline

#15 2011-03-26 14:48:16

wonder
Developer
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 5,937
Website

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

@Ramses de Norre just follow the text chronologically

ngoonee wrote:

While I certainly don't mind Firefox actually being called firefox, does this open Arch to complaints from Mozilla?

wonder wrote:

no

Lone_Wolf wrote:

The main problem was that any patches archlinux applied were only allowed to be used AFTER they had been approved by Mozilla.
For every change in the patches, a new approval was needed.
see this thread :   https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=25541

What has changed ?

wonder wrote:

no


And YES, we did asked for permission.

@lives2evil yes. if the unofficially branding was good enough, i didn't had the intention to bow to mozilla and ask for permission.

Last edited by wonder (2011-03-26 14:49:58)


Give what you have. To someone, it may be better than you dare to think.
Blog

Offline

#16 2011-03-26 14:55:24

Ramses de Norre
Member
From: Leuven - Belgium
Registered: 2007-03-27
Posts: 1,289

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

@wonder:

What has changed?

no

I don't think that's a valid answer smile But I was just kidding anyway wink

Offline

#17 2011-03-27 08:44:59

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

So the correct answer (other than "no") is that Firefox now has the official branding, because it was a pain for the Arch developers to implement Mozilla's licensing policy? Arch will now include the official branding, licensing be damned, and if Mozilla complains, then maybe Arch will go back to the non-branded version of Firefox? Yes? "No"?

Personally, I still liked the unofficial (non)branding better.

Offline

#18 2011-03-27 10:26:11

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 6,838

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

wonder writes three posts above that permission was sought.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

Offline

#19 2011-03-27 10:53:47

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

ngoonee wrote:

wonder writes three posts above that permission was sought.

I didn't really find wonder's posts very clear and was trying to sum up, in my last post, what appeared to be said in a fragmented way over several different posts to see if I was understanding correctly.

It's also still not really clear to me either why the old way, without Firefox branding, became more onerous for developers, than the new way, with Firefox branding (but without permission). On this point, wonder writes:

wonder wrote:

branding has been enabled because unofficial branding lacks love. It's all branded as nightly and you have a huge button saying Mozilla Developer Preview instead of Firefox or codename, like in the previews versions.

Mozilla Developer Preview would start conversations about our versiune of firefox, if is unstable or stable.

What does "lacks love" mean in the context of software development? Why does the nightly branding and the "huge button" matter? Why does this all raise questions about whether Firefox is stable or not, when these sorts of questions weren't a problem in the long standing past practice of a non-branded version in Arch?

Perhaps wonder answered these questions in a manner that makes sense to other developers, who may already know what's going on anyway, but the responses in this thread seem a bit vague and unclear for those who don't know what's going on. I suppose it doesn't really matter. I'm just curious. And, as I said, I preferred the old way without the branding.

Last edited by cb474 (2011-03-27 11:24:16)

Offline

#20 2011-03-27 14:59:47

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 6,838

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

cb474 wrote:
ngoonee wrote:

wonder writes three posts above that permission was sought.

I didn't really find wonder's posts very clear and was trying to sum up, in my last post, what appeared to be said in a fragmented way over several different posts to see if I was understanding correctly.

Read it without paying attention to the opinions of non-TU/devs (myself included), its much clearer that way. Wonder was correcting my mistaken assumption.

cb47 wrote:
wonder wrote:

branding has been enabled because unofficial branding lacks love. It's all branded as nightly and you have a huge button saying Mozilla Developer Preview instead of Firefox or codename, like in the previews versions.

Mozilla Developer Preview would start conversations about our versiune of firefox, if is unstable or stable.

What does "lacks love" mean in the context of software development? Why does the nightly branding and the "huge button" matter? Why does this all raise questions about whether Firefox is stable or not, when these sorts of questions weren't a problem in the long standing past practice of a non-branded version in Arch?

Perhaps wonder answered these questions in a manner that makes sense to other developers, who may already know what's going on anyway, but the responses in this thread seem a bit vague and unclear for those who don't know what's going on. I suppose it doesn't really matter. I'm just curious. And, as I said, I preferred the old way without the branding.

'lacks love' simply means that its not kept up-to-date. That means the unofficial branding does not look like the official branding without logo, which is how its supposed to be. And it matters because this will raise about 20 forum topics and 5 ML posts from users asking why Arch hasn't updated to the latest stable firefox.

Previously it would just be called Namaroka, not preview, not dev. This time they released the software without changing that (probably oversight, or noone cares much about it).

I'm pretty sure there's quick CSS hacks to get non-branded, not sure why you'd want that though.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

Offline

#21 2011-03-27 18:38:28

metre
Member
Registered: 2011-03-13
Posts: 130

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

What about 'Lanikai'? Same fate?

Offline

#22 2011-03-27 20:37:08

cb474
Member
Registered: 2009-04-04
Posts: 465

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

ngoonee wrote:

'lacks love' simply means that its not kept up-to-date. That means the unofficial branding does not look like the official branding without logo, which is how its supposed to be. And it matters because this will raise about 20 forum topics and 5 ML posts from users asking why Arch hasn't updated to the latest stable firefox.

Previously it would just be called Namaroka, not preview, not dev. This time they released the software without changing that (probably oversight, or noone cares much about it).

I'm pretty sure there's quick CSS hacks to get non-branded, not sure why you'd want that though.

Thanks! I understand much better now.

Offline

#23 2011-03-27 21:39:03

Lone_Wolf
Member
From: Netherlands, Europe
Registered: 2005-10-04
Posts: 4,306

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

I understand what wonder is saying, but have a comment :

FF4.jpg

That is what 'about firefox' shows on my system now .
no big developer preview button, nothing about nightly ...
The only thing that points to a non-branded version now are the icons used in the .desktop file,
and those are only visible in the menu.

Last edited by Lone_Wolf (2011-03-27 21:40:38)


Booting with apg Openrc, NOT systemd.
Automounting : not needed, i prefer pmount
Aur helpers : makepkg + my own local repo === rarely need them

Offline

#24 2011-03-27 21:50:02

lives2evil
Member
From: GMT+7
Registered: 2010-03-21
Posts: 244

Re: [Solved] Why is Firefox Branding Back, with 4.0?

It's an official release. Of course there won't be any developer preview button or nightly builds. And the icon in the menu is not related, it's up to the icons theme, not firefox.
Read the posts more carefully and you will understand.

@cb474: Please mark this as [Solved].

Last edited by lives2evil (2011-03-27 21:52:18)


tsujeruplive, tnarongisi... ... ... ... ɥsılƃuǝ sı sıɥʇ

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB