Windows, Schmindows

jlowell · 2003-11-14 05:00:11

Stepping away from Arch questions for a moment I thought I'd like to make an observation or two about an experience I'd had with Windows 98SE this evening that might be at least minimally interesting to those of us that use Microsoft operating systems occasionally although with less and less frequency as time passes.

I came to Linux in earnest with the implementation of Windows XP, having been taken back in no small way by the busy-bodyisch and self centered concerns of Microsoft respecting authentification and by their onerous licensing impedimenta. In the two years or so since XPs release, the only thing I'd noticed about it that provoked interest particularly was an apparent tendency toward the infantile, what with new icon sets that looked like something more at home in a day care center than in a business office. Having purchased a new laser printer last week, I decided that I'd use the occasion of its installation as an opportunity to clean up a badly bloated Windows 98SE partition on the first of this machine's three hard drives. I reinstalled the OS and most of the applications - some are no longer of any use - and managed to save upwards of, can you believe it, almost 1GB of disk space. In the process, I downloaded and reinstalled the latest free version of Real Player. What a change in the overall appearance of this program! My former version seemed at least minimally adult with a straight forward, although strongly commercial interface. But this new one, oy! You'd think it was mid-wifed by someone in the advertising department at Gerber's Baby Products. I mean is this what's emerging from the Linux/Windows competition: grown-ups on one side with Linux, the emotionally less developed with Windows on the other? God, by this standard Microsoft was better off with DOS.

Surely, I'm not alone in making these observations.

jlowell

jedthehumanoid · 2003-11-14 05:53:04

dude, if you think the newest windows version of real player looks ugly, you haven't found the worst part of it yet. it's bloated like you will not believe and it will slow even the fastest machines down to the point at which multitasking is an absolute joke. seriously, don't get me started on windows. i was about the same as you from the sound of it. i started of with linux because after getting a copy of XP for a computer I had just built at the time, I found it crashed all the time. now if just i could get a job that didn't require me to use wln -sindows everyday. lol the more i learn about linux, the more i truely love it. it's blessing.

ln -s /dev/crap /mnt/win

Xentac · 2003-11-14 06:35:24

The first time I saw XP it reminded me of Playmobil. It still does...

hkctr · 2003-11-15 08:25:08

I understand where your coming from jlowell. I don't like it either but it does sort of remind me of the default kde 3.1 window scheme though... BTW, RealOne looks just the same in linux but the linux version won't play any premium realnetwork services.

jlowell · 2003-11-15 10:58:25

hkctr,

BTW, RealOne looks just the same in linux but the linux version won't play any premium realnetwork services.

Yes, sometimes the Lord is merciful, isn't He, hkctr?

Xentac,

The first time I saw XP it reminded me of Playmobil

That has it right on the head. My, how these people have trivialized personal computing in the last couple of years. I mean talk about a lack of substance.

What's worse is when a clown like Matthew Szulik, Red Hat's CEO, joins in with an endorsement of Windows. If you can believe it here's what he had to say about a week or so ago:

"I would say that for the consumer market place, Windows probably continues to be the right product line".

What an unadulterated jackass. Given Red Hat's abandonment of its own desktop product and its now exclusive focus on, as Szulik, in his very best we're-really-a-cut-above-the-rest-of-you style puts it, "the enterprize", could it be possible for a person to be more transparent, more obviously self-serving? "The enterprize"? Really. Only someone thoroughly emersed in the sewage of corporate life could express themselves in such a contrived way. The GNU/Linux community ought to show this man its back.

jedthehumanoid,

now if just i could get a job that didn't require me to use wln -sindows everyday

One day you will, maybe sooner than later.

Regards, everyone.

jlowell

hkctr · 2003-11-15 13:35:48

Have to respectfully disagree with you jlowell.

Whether intended or not, the realnetworks premium services and other services that play only on RealOne or windows media player are a lifeline to home for many folks. People who live overseas, away from their home countries depend on these services to keep up with what is going on back home. The internet really does make the world a smaller place and if the price to pay to make this happen is using RealOne, then so be it. I'm not saying its right, just saying thats the way it is.

As a shareholder of Red Hat Inc. ( who bought south of $4 ) the announcement by the CEO is most welcome.

"Shares of Red Hat (Nasdaq: RHAT) have been red hot, rising from $3 a year ago to above $13, and not just because a bull market has lifted stocks. The company is growing sales at the high-growth clip of more than 30% year over year and recently earned its first operating profit." - Motley Fool, Nov-13-03

They got out a business that makes them no money and are concentrating their resources on what they think they can make money at - the server and enterprise market. Was the comment self-serving? You bet it was. Mr. Szulik has many share options that he wants to cash in on and he can't do so if his company is losing money. He does not work for the open source community, he works for me and other shareholders. Again, I'm not saying its right, just saying thats the way it is.

Last year I built a computer for my 72 year old father. I could have put any OS on it I wanted to. I installed WindowsME. It is the best OS for what he does on his computer and is less of a headache for me to maintain for him that linux ever would be.

jlowell · 2003-11-15 20:38:58

Hi hkctr,

The standard I was applying to Real Player and the context for the remarks I made about it and WindowsXP above was aesthetic, of course, not utilitarian. If you can't get past the odor you rarely taste.

With respect to your comments regarding Szulik and Red Hat, one could not be more grateful than to receive concessions of bias going in. Can you imagine the effect if you were to have cast yourself as objective and disinterested?

You'll excuse me, hopefully, if I don't give pride of place in this interchange to the purely commercial. When you say

Again, I'm not saying its right, just saying thats the way it is.

I think you approach the thrust of my observations most precisely. After all, if the amoral were to go unchallenged among life's possibilities and be accepted passively and on its face, how might one justify, say, the revolution against Soviet oppression in Hungary in 1956. One couldn't. So to the extent that you're willing to prioritize the interests of the GNU/Linux community and to treat them as more central than narrow, personal concerns we'll have a chance at convergence. You understand that I don't see Szulik as serving community interests, that rather his comments and actions are inimical to them, and that's going too far. Its one thing for an important community figure to be protective of himself, its quite another to make thoughtless judgements, no matter how sincerely felt, that impact the fortunes and self evaluation of GNU/Linux users as a whole. To put it another way, Szulik's comments make caring very much about the movement of Red Hat's share price, except perhaps in some perverse way, just about impossible. That may not be right, but its the way things are.

As to your choice of ME for your father, less maintenance for you to do than with linux you say? Not to be argumentative, but you're not concerned that his hard drive will need regular defragging and that his weekly virus definitions will need updating? Come on now, hktcr, this is your very own dad and we simply cannot accept any such shortcuts.

Very best regards.

jlowell

sarah31 · 2003-11-16 01:29:16

personally i don't care what RH or Ms do. I only use windows at work and really have no choice there because there is noone in the linux community that has lab technicians in mind.

GNU licenses allow for one to make money with the source carrying the license. so RH can do what ever they like as long as they maintain their obligations to the gnu license, which they do. is the ceo a prick? i have no idea i cannot judge a book by the cover but i can tell you one thing, RH has been a very very strong force in bringing linux to the world.

there are plenty of desktop linuxes out there that can fill the void. if RH feels they need to focus on big business that is their choice. whether you like their decision or not they are attempting to bring linux to more of the world and that is a good thing.

in the end though i don't really care because i don't use RH or Windows at home which is where i do most of my computing. one last thing i will say is that in general i do not understand when people get so upset about stuff in the computer world. history has shown that it is one industry where being a thief, liar and cutthroat is the standard not the exception. i know i am not the only one that holds that view. that being said no one has forced me to stop using a computer or doing all sorts of really neat things with it. bill gates, szulik, etc have yet to interrupt that cycle and i really don't see them doing so. if it comes down one day to having to choose between having a computer or not i am sure that i will choose not to have one. lots of people do just fine without one and i am sure that i can as well.

jlowell · 2003-11-16 04:07:27

Hi Sarah,

bill gates, szulik, etc have yet to interrupt that cycle and i really don't see them doing so.

Yes, I would concur in your placing Gates and Szulik in the same category. While Szulik certainly is as insipid and oily as Gates, he just isn't as smart. Better to be snookered by someone that's smart.

jlowell

hkctr · 2003-11-16 05:17:45

I agree with you about the aesthetics of RealOne. Curved window corners and pastel colors seem to be all the rage again (I keep having flashbacks to the era when the Miami Vice school of decorating was in vogue). Judging fom all the screen shots on justlinux.com, it appears that this trend has made the jump to the linux world also. Am I the only one on earth who still uses XMMS with the default skin?

Regarding Red Hat, I bought RH8 and liked it so I bought some stock in the company. Not the first time I did this and won't be the last. Whether it goes up or down will not affect my lifestyle or my ability to think for myself. I hope is goes up though... . On the other hand, I do not and never have, (much to the demise of my retirement fund) owned any microsoft stock in spite of purchasing and using their products continuously since 1982. Still can't figure out why I never did but something inside me always said "no".

By cutting the desktop distro loose, RH has done the right thing. Not just from the corporate point of view but from the viewpoint of the community. RH has planted the seeds and taken the distro this far and from here, the community of developers and users will take over. Fedora will either grow up and become a big oak in the forest of distros or it will whither and die. RH, of course, wants it to flourish so it can pick the best of the development and incorporate into their enterprise product. At the sme time, users will be able to enjoy the same benefit, for free, by using Fedora. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Let's assume that everyone turns their back, as you suggest, and abandons the Fedora Project. RH, will continue to do their corporate duty and develop and improve their products. Under this scenario, you will have to pay to gain any benefit from any RH development.

We all vote with our wallets and fingers. One individual's vote is worth as much as the next person's, unless you happen to be the IT Director of a Fortune 500 company. Then your vote is worth significantly more.

RH is preparing to do battle against Novell, with the winner taking on MS. May the best man win.

tsykoduk · 2003-11-16 16:14:55

RH is preparing to do battle against Novell, with the winner taking on MS. May the best man win.

Whaaa? RH battling Novell? The world will bleed red.

But seriously - why would RH battle Novell? Novell's linux services run on top of RH - and NDS/eDirectory is the best choice in enterprise directory services. I think that we will see Novell continue to develop killer backend services for the enterprise - and continue to push into the Linux space. With their purchace of SuSE and Ximian they have added to their developer stable a powerhouse of Linux coders. Mix that with their current NetWare/eDirectory/ZEN folks, and I think that you will have a very powerful combo that will legitimise Linux to the CIO's of Novell's traditional marketspace (big companys).

If, and I say, If Novell can make a branded delivery of services sit on the Linux to tie in and totally remotely manage it by ZEN, with Single Sign On from dirXML and enterprise location independance from iFolder... That mix of services might just deliver the momentum that we have been looking for for Linux on the desktop.

Since all of these things will be coded for linux - who is to say that you cannot take their pacakages and run them, say, on Arch?

All of this has one major assumption - that Novell does not shoot themselves in the foot as has been their historical habit.

jlowell · 2003-11-18 19:15:31

hkctr,

Sorry to take so long in responding.

You know, my concern with RealPlayer's aesthetics is less specific to them then I may have indicated. There seems to me to be a trend toward the rather childish in the Windows application interface world and, at least to some extent, the latest version of RealPlayer captures this spirit. Xentac pin-pointed the phenomenon quite well with his allusion to Playmobil. It's the general direction of things that's noticable. God knows, maybe most computer users aren't old enough to use Linux.

You say:

By cutting the desktop distro loose, RH has done the right thing. Not just from the corporate point of view but from the viewpoint of the community. RH has planted the seeds and taken the distro this far and from here, the community of developers and users will take over. Fedora will either grow up and become a big oak in the forest of distros or it will whither and die. RH, of course, wants it to flourish so it can pick the best of the development and incorporate into their enterprise product. At the sme time, users will be able to enjoy the same benefit, for free, by using Fedora. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.

Here, again, the matter of the Red Hat's focus on acquiring corporate business and its abandoning the desktop is only of peripheral concern to me. My focus here is on the poorly considered remarks Szulik made respecting Windows vs Linux on the desktop. They reveal a certain callousness, almost a contempt, for the GNU/Linux community on his part. I suppose that we can hope that we'll be spared any more delphic pronouncements from this imbecile now that his attention will be drawn elsewhere. Frankly, I hope that the recent acquisition of SuSE by Novell with it's focus on the same markets sought by Red Hat for Linux is a whopping success. The only thing "win-win" about Red Hat as far as I'm concerned would be it's dissolution.

Best regards.

jlowell

jlowell · 2003-11-21 08:37:40

hkctr,

I just noticed this at OSNews:

http://www.gnomepro.com/dedrat.phtml

Thought you might find it interesting.

jlowell

hkctr · 2003-11-21 12:19:19

Thanks jlowell. Sounds like this guy has placed his ballot in the box, voting with his conscience and his wallet. He makes many valid points and it is certainly understandable why he is feels upset and perhaps betrayed. His actions subsequent to his letter will be dictated by what is best for him and his customers. Right or wrong, can't fault him a bit for doing that. If enough feel the same as he does, Fedora will surely go the whither and die route. If enough clients think he is wrong, his business will whither and die. Time will tell.

Personally, I think that enough people, particularly in the US, have a vested interest in RH that will make it impractical to cease development of Fedora in the short term. Long-term, who knows?

Right or wrong, RH has done what it thinks is best for itself and its customers. One only has to look at the financial statements to get a snapshot of how everone is voting at any given time.

I've enjoyed this debate and hope I haven't bored everyone with my trivial views. jlowell and myself will probably never agree on the RH situation but I think we would both agree that it is great to have a forum like this to express our thoughts and that vanilla ice cream is great but it is nice to have chocolate once in a while. Choice is a good thing. If it wasn't for RH, I wouldn't be using Arch. Thanks everyone.

jlowell · 2003-11-21 16:54:16

hktcr,

I thought you might be interested in the OSNews item. Wishing you well personally.

jlowell

Arch Linux

#1 2003-11-14 05:00:11

Windows, Schmindows

#2 2003-11-14 05:53:04

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#3 2003-11-14 06:35:24

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#4 2003-11-15 08:25:08

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#5 2003-11-15 10:58:25

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#6 2003-11-15 13:35:48

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#7 2003-11-15 20:38:58

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#8 2003-11-16 01:29:16

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#9 2003-11-16 04:07:27

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#10 2003-11-16 05:17:45

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#11 2003-11-16 16:14:55

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#12 2003-11-18 19:15:31

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#13 2003-11-21 08:37:40

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#14 2003-11-21 12:19:19

Re: Windows, Schmindows

#15 2003-11-21 16:54:16

Re: Windows, Schmindows

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