Attention skype users! - MS patent to allow recording/spying of VoIP

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-10 16:35:52

hi everyone,

I thought Skype users using Archlinux might want to have a look at a technology Microsoft Corporation has patented on June 23 2011, that will possibly end up in skype and potentially would allow viewing of conversations using subversive techniques that abuse networking protocols to allow your conversations to be routed to a recording agent. (ie: Digital wire-tapping) Microsoft, Government and law enforcement can make use of this new technology to view/monitor/record your calls. this potentially will affect not only skype users, but any VoIP platform that Microsoft supports/develops. (ie: Xbox 360, Office 365 too)

here is a link to the article;

http://softwarefreedom.org/blog/2011/jun/29/Office-365/

for those of you who aren't familiar with www.softwarefreedom.com ... Software Freedom Law Center = Legal team for the Free Software Foundation, and they offer legal advice for free software developers - this source is legit.

here is a link to the Patent in question, itself;

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Par … 0110153809

the SFLC also has a link to this patent in their blog... If you have a look at the patent itself, it's pretty clear what the plan entails, and isn't overly difficult to read through.

Myself, i am not impressed with this news, and won't be using skype at all ever again, at home or at work, period. ~ Part of the reason for posting (aside from to share this news with those who are unaware) - i will be looking for a more secure free-alternative. If any Archers have advice on a good VoIP client for linux, by all means - feel free to post

also, i'd like to hear other Archer's opinions on the matter!

NOTE: ****Let's keep this conversation clean, if you have opinions on the matter as per the moderators request; No Microsoft bashing, attacking governments, etc. and/or drawing conclusions that may not be factual ie: stick to the forum guidelines - by opinions that isn't what i meant. i was more interested if any of you think that there are valid concerns to be discussed***

Last edited by triplesquarednine (2011-07-11 04:19:48)

esdaniel · 2011-07-10 19:21:37

As soon as Microsoft acquired Skype I feared something like this would or could take place.

The GNU folk have been working hard to promote an alternative though how successful that will be with non-free OS users to provide the ubiquity that Skype created has yet to be seen:
http://planet.gnu.org/gnutelephony/?p=14

Till then the SIP/Asterisk type of option looks the most appealing to me:
http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_VOIP_Software

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-10 19:36:24

esdaniel wrote:

The GNU folk have been working hard to promote an alternative though how successful that will be with non-free OS users to provide the ubiquity that Skype created has yet to be seen:
http://planet.gnu.org/gnutelephony/?p=14
Till then the SIP/Asterisk type of option looks the most appealing to me:
http://p2pfoundation.net/Open_Source_VOIP_Software

hey thanks for the links you re right SIP/Asterisk does look fairly appealing. I am going to test it out this week.

EDIT: fixing paragraph to be more appropriate.

Do keep in mind that this isn't skype exclusive. (ie: xbox and office365) i think this probably violates aspects of the U.S constitution and Canadian laws (I am in Canada), as well as laws in other countries... I am actually thinking about sending some information to my local representatives of gov't on the issue, or possibly the local news station...

While i understand, this might be handy for Law enforcement, and is practical in some ways ~ i personally don't believe they should be wielding this type of power lightly, if at all (MS/GOV'T/Agencies). especially given the track record of security(or lack there of) in Windows, and many other MS products, historically... I think there is a lot of potential for 3rd parties to circumvent security here. being able to potentially gain access to both personal information and sensitive corporate information... I don't believe the parties involved should have access to this kind of information, without going through the proper legal process, including other Countries legal processes - outside of the US..

thanks again, cheerz!

Last edited by triplesquarednine (2011-07-10 23:41:26)

jasonwryan · 2011-07-10 19:47:02

Moving to GNU/Linux discussion...

ewaller · 2011-07-10 19:47:36

Moderator: Let's keep to the facts people. I know many of us have opinions of Microsoft, but let's not speculate on their motivation lest we wander towards libeling them.

Thanks.

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-10 20:20:33

ewaller wrote:

Moderator: Let's keep to the facts people. I know many of us have opinions of Microsoft, but let's not speculate on their motivation lest we wander towards libeling them.
Thanks.

no problem, i actually just edited both of my posts, to reflect your request - you can let me know if they are more acceptable if you like. i also, added some guidelines, for anyone who might comment (basically, to just keep the conversation clean). my reason for posting in the first place wasn't to start a anti-microsoft-hate-fest. i think there are some valid concerns here, that could affect a lot of people, not only individuals, but potentially businesses.

thanks ewaller, for pointing that out

examon · 2011-07-10 20:40:21

Thanks for sharing this information triplesquarednine! Everyone who use skype were afraid of this after Miscrosoft acquired Skype.

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-10 23:04:26

examon wrote:

Thanks for sharing this information triplesquarednine! Everyone who use skype were afraid of this after Miscrosoft acquired Skype.

no problem. as soon as i heard about it, i knew i would post it here, so everyone in the Arch community would be aware.

yes, i had concerns of my own, but i wasn't quite expecting this.

oh well, another one bites the dust! (to be replaced by free software!) lol.

Blµb · 2011-07-11 10:38:36

Personally I wasn't a fan of skype anyway. I understand that what really makes it that successful is the phone-calling.

From my point of view: I don't care about calling phones, since I never ever ever EVER use up the free minutes I have on my phone anyway. And I really prefer teamspeak 3 / gtalk with voip support, etc.
From my "gaming" point of view: I really hate that some people "insist" on talking over skype, while teamspeak is much more comfortable: voice activation, push-to-talk, and if you have a tray icon or the window open it actually
keeps showing you if the mic is muted... In skype the mic-mute icon disappears after a few seconds for whatever reason. Also, teamspeak beeps if you talk into a muted mic.
Sure, teamspeak isn't open, but in my experience, mumble never worked well (low quality, clicking, connection losses, crashes, especially with OSS...), and people just... don't actually *have* it.

I currently refuse to add anybody in skype, and tell them to get jabber instead. If they have an android phone they *most likely* have a gtalk account anyway. (almost certainly actually...) (- and that works well together with "regular" jabber)

Also I'd really like to point out that "M$ probably doesn't care about us {playing <insert game>,talking about <insert topic here>}" is NOT a valid argument FOR allowing them to be ABLE to spy on you!,
which btw. is the only thing people I talk to seem to respond with...

Last edited by Blµb (2011-07-11 10:40:17)

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-11 18:18:24

Blµb wrote:

Personally I wasn't a fan of skype anyway. I understand that what really makes it that successful is the phone-calling.
From my point of view: I don't care about calling phones, since I never ever ever EVER use up the free minutes I have on my phone anyway. And I really prefer teamspeak 3 / gtalk with voip support, etc.
....
I currently refuse to add anybody in skype, and tell them to get jabber instead. If they have an android phone they *most likely* have a gtalk account anyway. (almost certainly actually...) (- and that works well together with "regular" jabber)
Also I'd really like to point out that "M$ probably doesn't care about us {playing <insert game>,talking about <insert topic here>}" is NOT a valid argument FOR allowing them to be ABLE to spy on you!,
which btw. is the only thing people I talk to seem to respond with...

I'm also not really a fan of skype. At work we use it, and because of that at home i have had to have it as well. Not only that, but i also do a bit of contracted work (here and there) for another company ~ whom relies on skype. everyone works from home, and we essentially have a virtual-office space over skype. My 'main' employer is in Germany right now, and once the IT department can get him to sign off on it, we will be replacing Skype with something else (we already know he is not going to be impressed with this skype news. He already pushed a corporate mandate down that we will never be migrating to Office365 either, being as we see absolutely no logic in having microsoft host all of our internal data on their servers/ the cloud. <- it's bad idea in general.

I whole heartedly agree with your last statement about the gaming perspective. whether they care about who's playing X game, talking about Y topic, is completely besides the point. for me, the concerns tend to be centered around a few issues i see:

1. invasion of privacy - which applies to both individuals, groups, and businesses.

2. creating a backdoor in their implementations of VoIP, creates more possibilities for exploitation by 3rd parties... which could have number of ill-effects.

3. who is to say that this technology won't be abused? (and not necessarily by microsoft, but in general). it's not a stretch of the imagination, to think of ways this might apply. ~ a couple quick examples, which have nothing to do with MS, nor this technology or any particular group specifically, but instead looking at how people have behaved throughout history in in general, would be ... look how airports were doing racial profiling post 9/11. or how way back when in the 50's the US GOV't targeted anyone who they suspected was a communist ~ from the average Joe, to folk singers, politicians, to movie stars. Most of whom, actually had nothing to do with communism, but there political views didn't gel with the government at the time. they were demonized.. i just feel this technology isn't good for society in general and 'could' create a conflict of interest... I'm not saying something of this nature 'WILL' happen, but the possibly for abuse is there, ya know?

and besides all of that, this whole situation just creates a lot of distrust, it's very invasive, and should be considered malware (because it is).

..maybe i'll check out teamspeak / gtalk - thanks for the tip. I've heard of both, but yours is the first review i have heard (which is helpful, so thanks!)

take care and thanks for your own insights on the matter, it is appreciated!

SS4 · 2011-07-11 18:35:31

I only use it because I can't find a free MSN client that supports webcam (it wouldn't send in Kopete). Nonetheless it will be uninstalled mainly since I'm trying to run only free software

Leonid.I · 2011-07-11 19:35:27

I think this whole privacy thing is blown way out of proportions. So what's wrong with MS/government eavesdropping? For really private/secure communication (involving bank accounts/passwords), I wouldn't trust skype anyway and stick to encrypted emails. For casual conversations I don't mind other people listening if they have nothing better to do...

For a nice linux/windows voip client check out ekiga, although I am not sure if it supports any encryption at all.

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-11 22:11:44

Leonid.I wrote:

I think this whole privacy thing is blown way out of proportions. So what's wrong with MS/government eavesdropping? For really private/secure communication (involving bank accounts/passwords), I wouldn't trust skype anyway and stick to encrypted emails. For casual conversations I don't mind other people listening if they have nothing better to do...
For a nice linux/windows voip client check out ekiga, although I am not sure if it supports any encryption at all.

I can see your point, on the one hand. but i personally don't want people listening in on my conversations, casual or not. are you telling me, if you had a roommate or sibling ~ you wouldn't mind them listening in on you having an intimate conversation with your lover??? i would. (and a total stranger is even worse )

But in this case, it isn't always casual/personal conversations this VoIP technology could be used in. In Business, skype is VERY commonly used, also commonly used in Business are NDAs (Non-Disclosure Agreements), if this technology is included in either Office365 or Skype ~ this potentially could violate NDAs, and infringes on a company's privacy and rights. it isn't uncommon to have internal meeting's online, especially if a company is international, and/or does business internationally. In this example, it also isn't uncommon for people within the company to be discussing plans, that no one outside of the company should have access to at all...

i don't think the concern here is for passwords/banking, as there are already mechanisms in place for that kind of thing. right?

i'll give another example.. imagine a group of people, some sort group/minority/grassroot-movement seeking social change (that is valid) and now imagine that this technology is being abused - to stop them from effectively organizing themselves in a legit way (ie: peaceful protest, meetings, etc) ... (and i don't necessarily mean by MS/Gov't, i mean anyone who can gain access through this technology, lawfully or *unlawfully*)...

it's situations like these is where i see potential problems with this technology ~ just saying hello to a friend, and chatting about how your day was, or playing video games online with your freinds ~ in those cases, i can see your point.

but i think there are bigger considerations here...

Last edited by triplesquarednine (2011-07-11 22:48:46)

Leonid.I · 2011-07-12 04:10:17

Fair enough. But at least here in the US the {cell,}phone companies are oblidged to record your conversations and possibly provide them to the government agencies/police upon demand. This does not mean that people will stop using phones to talk to their girlfriends... What I meant is that if a similar technology is added to skype, it is nothing new.

People in bussiness (except IT) are usually idiots. They get sued for whatever reason associated with an improper use of VOIP -- they deserve it. FWIW, skype is a creepy piece of software, not even available in 64bits, and it's 2011 out there. Definitely not a bussiness grade technology.

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-12 04:42:10

Leonid.I wrote:

Fair enough. But at least here in the US the {cell,}phone companies are oblidged to record your conversations and possibly provide them to the government agencies/police upon demand. This does not mean that people will stop using phones to talk to their girlfriends... What I meant is that if a similar technology is added to skype, it is nothing new.

true enough... but for those of who are not U.S citizens nor living in the USA ~ What business does Microsoft or a 'foreign government' have potentially recording our VoIP calls?

People in bussiness (except IT) are usually idiots. They get sued for whatever reason associated with an improper use of VOIP -- they deserve it. FWIW, skype is a creepy piece of software, not even available in 64bits, and it's 2011 out there. Definitely not a bussiness grade technology.

...and yet it is used all the time ~ and i totally agree with you on these points. (minus, all people in business being idiots, most of them (depending on the industry they are in) just aren't necessarily the most 'tech-savvy'.

thanks for your opinions and insights

cheerz

Last edited by triplesquarednine (2011-07-12 15:19:53)

Blµb · 2011-07-12 13:15:20

I totally didn't think about NDAs. Good point there.

About recorded phone calls: I also am of the opinion that this is not a real argument. It is like saying "it works this way there, so why not here as well". Because a simple fact in this case is: I'm just as well against recording phone calls. So, they are already being recorded - (not) fine, but if I can fight it - or at some other place fight against the same thing happening "again", then I'll do so.

(Of course, by fighting I mean in a non-violent way. In this case: getting rid of skype.)

Last edited by Blµb (2011-07-12 13:15:59)

imag1narynumber · 2011-07-12 14:18:57

Leonid.I wrote:

I think this whole privacy thing is blown way out of proportions. So what's wrong with MS/government eavesdropping? For really private/secure communication (involving bank accounts/passwords), I wouldn't trust skype anyway and stick to encrypted emails. For casual conversations I don't mind other people listening if they have nothing better to do...
For a nice linux/windows voip client check out ekiga, although I am not sure if it supports any encryption at all.

http://www.schneier.com/essay-114.html

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-12 14:50:22

imag1narynumber wrote:

http://www.schneier.com/essay-114.html

Great article ~ thanks for posting.

this article in many ways sums up how i feel on issues such as these. I may go a little over-board compared to others. For example, i block all advertising, tracking agents, etc ~ not only with a single method, but with multiple solutions. I feel currently on the internet there is too many invasive technologies ~ that simply go unnoticed by the general public. whether it be google's practices, facebook, and obviously this Latest 'digital wire-tapping' technology is another prime example.

in the end, i decided to write a complaint to the CBC's MarketPlace, who are consumer watchdogs / whistle-blowers here in Canada. If they see merit in this issue ~ it could end up on Canadian National News (here's me hoping!)...I sent them all of the information i was able to get my hands on. I also told them that if they contact SFLC - they might be able to get more specific information than i cannot provide... I explained the potential problems (that i see) with this technology, and how it could affect consumers and businesses here in Canada, but also worldwide ~ hopefully they will have some real experts assess this matter further. I will be sure to post, any news, if anything comes of this - if any of you guys are interested?

cheerz

Last edited by triplesquarednine (2011-07-12 14:56:29)

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-12 14:54:59

Blµb wrote:

I totally didn't think about NDAs. Good point there.

Working in IT, including myself having to sign NDAs in the past, had brought this concept into focus in my mind, almost instantly. The same potential problem exists with Office365 too. (hence why we aren't going to be adopting it at work, either)

thanks

Last edited by triplesquarednine (2011-07-12 15:01:46)

ScionicSpectre · 2011-07-18 06:19:27

I'm a paying customer, and I trust the people behind Skype so long as they stay in the mix at Microsoft. I've had a very good business relationship with them so far, and as a paying customer for a long time, I know they have my interests in mind, no matter how closed their software is.

Until they do something to show me that they're not trustworthy, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. But I certainly do prefer to use Empathy and other alternative means of communication when it's convenient. There's just no open framework that's quite as popular as Skype. It'd be nice if there were a really good cross-platform XMPP client for video calls, but I don't see it happening in the immediate future.

The framework is there- I think that open VOIP will certainly become more viable in the future if we have a wide enough approach. An Android/iOS/Linux/OSX/Windows solution to voice chatting with an open protocol and implementation would be phenomenal, so long as it weren't extremely buggy.

matse · 2011-07-18 09:44:13

ScionicSpectre wrote:

Until they do something to show me that they're not trustworthy

You mean something like Skype reads bios information or be all you can be - be a supernode?
Or do you think it's nice of skype that linux users have to use version 2 of the skype client (in which you can't disable being made to a supernode)?
Or just google skype news and you will see (more or less only) bad headlines (security risks, downtimes of skype login-servers and integration of web 2.0 stuff).

And here is an extract of the skype terms of use

5.2 Use of Your Equipment: The Internet Communications Software may use the processing capabilities, memory and bandwidth of the computer (or other applicable device) you are using, for the limited purpose of facilitating the communication and establishing the connection between Internet Communications Software users.

And it says "users" here - so not just you and the people you wanna talk to.

Or:

5.3 [...] However, Skype may in its sole discretion require you to automatically download and install Updates from time to time in order to allow you to use the Software and you agree to accept such Updates subject to these Terms.

And just a few weeks ago there was this incident where skype installed unauthorized crapware on (at least windows) computers. Nice.

And there are good open source alternatives, my favorite is:
Psi+ with psimedia plugin

But also promising look these:

Empathy and Pidgin

Jitsi

Blink

Ekiga

I'm sure there will be something that suits your needs, the only problem is the huge userbase of skype. And it's true that really everybody can use skype, because it's really simple. But in my opinion the privacy concerns and the dependence on an unfree software are not worth it.
matse

Last edited by matse (2011-07-18 09:56:33)

triplesquarednine · 2011-07-28 18:48:31

awesome post Matse!

lots of interesting info in there thanks a lot.

..i didn't know about the BIOS or Supernode thing.

screw skype.

Arch Linux

#1 2011-07-10 16:35:52

Attention skype users! - MS patent to allow recording/spying of VoIP

#2 2011-07-10 19:21:37

Re: Attention skype users! - MS patent to allow recording/spying of VoIP

#3 2011-07-10 19:36:24

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#4 2011-07-10 19:47:02

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#5 2011-07-10 19:47:36

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#6 2011-07-10 20:20:33

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#7 2011-07-10 20:40:21

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#8 2011-07-10 23:04:26

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#9 2011-07-11 10:38:36

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#10 2011-07-11 18:18:24

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#11 2011-07-11 18:35:31

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#12 2011-07-11 19:35:27

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#13 2011-07-11 22:11:44

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#14 2011-07-12 04:10:17

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#15 2011-07-12 04:42:10

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#16 2011-07-12 13:15:20

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#17 2011-07-12 14:18:57

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#18 2011-07-12 14:50:22

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#19 2011-07-12 14:54:59

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#20 2011-07-18 06:19:27

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#21 2011-07-18 09:44:13

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#22 2011-07-28 18:48:31

Re: Attention skype users! - MS patent to allow recording/spying of VoIP

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