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#1 2011-09-06 14:53:40

Teho
Member
Registered: 2010-01-30
Posts: 200

Future of QT and KDE

So Qt5&KDE5 will be a horrible mess if:

1. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for X11
2. Kwin drop support for X11
3. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for QtSvg
4. OpenGL Qt Graphics system is buggy

Dropping support for X11 isn't happening anytime soon as long as there is no offical support from Nvidia/Ati. That pretty much rules out the 1st and 2nd. I'm not saying that it's impossible but unlikely.
QtSvg is important for KDE so they will most likely maintain it, 3rd point ruled out. I don't see how inactive Qt windows using OpenGL cause any problems with games that are most likely run in fullscreen mode, the 4th.

Just to make clear, I don't know much about the situation but I highly doubt that KDE and Qt developers are intentionally trying to destroy the desktop.

Last edited by Teho (2011-09-06 14:54:49)


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#2 2011-09-06 15:32:31

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Teho wrote:

So Qt5&KDE5 will be a horrible mess if:

1. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for X11
2. Kwin drop support for X11
3. Nokia/Trolltech and community drops support for QtSvg
4. OpenGL Qt Graphics system is buggy

Dropping support for X11 isn't happening anytime soon as long as there is no offical support from Nvidia/Ati. That pretty much rules out the 1st and 2nd. I'm not saying that it's impossible but unlikely.
QtSvg is important for KDE so they will most likely maintain it, 3rd point ruled out. I don't see how inactive Qt windows using OpenGL cause any problems with games that are most likely run in fullscreen mode, the 4th.

Just to make clear, I don't know much about the situation but I highly doubt that KDE and Qt developers are intentionally trying to destroy the desktop.

I am not saying that any of this is a guarantee, just that the future for Ati/Nvidia binary blobs isn't looking good in regards to Qt and highpoly game development. And we need those, well I do.

And there not intentionally trying to destroy the desktop. It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

OpenGL from a developers point of view is more attractive than X11.

I am just getting my own ducks in a row just in case things on there end don't work out. And in OpenGL SVG is pointless, Doesn't even make sense to use it here.

Kwin will be all OpenGL and all I am hearing from the KDE camp is Wayland this and Wayland that. With zero mention of Ati/Nvidia Blobs

Last edited by zester (2011-09-06 15:33:59)

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#3 2011-09-06 15:33:34

kachelaqa
Member
Registered: 2010-09-26
Posts: 215

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Teho wrote:

Just to make clear, I don't know much about the situation but I highly doubt that KDE and Qt developers are intentionally trying to destroy the desktop.

quite. i think a lot of the claims made in this thread should be tagged with [citation needed].

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#4 2011-09-06 15:40:50

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

kachelaqa wrote:
Teho wrote:

Just to make clear, I don't know much about the situation but I highly doubt that KDE and Qt developers are intentionally trying to destroy the desktop.

quite. i think a lot of the claims made in this thread should be tagged with [citation needed].

I am looking for mine right now but will take a minute some are in mailing lists and others the Qt Dev Blog.

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#5 2011-09-06 15:44:36

diegoxter
Member
From: Valencia, Venezuela
Registered: 2011-02-19
Posts: 11
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

I am not saying that any of this is a guarantee, just that the future for Ati/Nvidia binary blobs isn't looking good in regards to Qt and highpoly game development. And we need those, well I do.

And there not intentionally trying to destroy the desktop. It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

OpenGL from a developers point of view is more attractive than X11.

I am just getting my own ducks in a row just in case things on there end don't work out. And in OpenGL SVG is pointless, Doesn't even make sense to use it here.

Kwin will be all OpenGL and all I am hearing from the KDE camp is Wayland this and Wayland that. With zero mention of Ati/Nvidia Blobs

http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/ … 35809.html


"In brightest days, In darkest nights, no evil shall escape my sight!" Sheldon Cooper cuoting Green Lantern.

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#6 2011-09-06 16:01:44

kachelaqa
Member
Registered: 2010-09-26
Posts: 215

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

I am looking for mine right now but will take a minute some are in mailing lists and others the Qt Dev Blog.

for anyone interested in what the future holds for qt, these two blog posts might be a good place to start:

    (1) Thoughts about Qt 5
    (2) Responses to Qt 5

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#7 2011-09-06 16:28:03

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Somethings that I am excited about on and off Qt campus wink

1. It appears QML2 will use v8
2. v8 for QtScript
3. Mozilla is building a Qt4 native port <-- I tested it out works for the most part
    visuals are a little messed up. Could this mean that a Native Qt4 Gecko widget
    might be possible? Don't know maybe wink
4. We might even see a QtWebkit that uses v8!!!!

v8 in Qt is what I am most excited about. I use nodejs for my web development
and that uses v8, but I also use Ogre3D as my main 3D graphics engine on top
of Qt. My hopes are to be able to use Javascript when ever and where ever I see fit
and have it just work. With one javascript engine. Be it Desktop, Game, Multimedia
or Web Applications. Granted it's possible now, but the situation would be better
if I didnt have to use v8 for this and JSCore for that.


let me say it a few more times v8, v8, v8!!!!!

I am also looking forward to a OAuth 2 library then I could do all kinds of cool-things
with Google Storage for Developers

Last couple of months I have really gotten into doing stuff with Cloud Storage and what not.

Ill be doing alot of stuff in regards to Google services and YES I am a google Fan boy.. Love Google

Here have a Skia Example smile Won't find many of these on the web that are not directed at android.

#include "SkCanvas.h"
#include "SkGraphics.h"
#include "SkImageEncoder.h"
#include "SkString.h"
#include "SkTemplates.h"

int main (int argc, char * const argv[]) {

    //
    SkAutoGraphics ag;
    
    //Output filename
    SkString path("skhello.png");

    //Set Text To Draw
    SkString text("Hello, World");

    SkPaint paint;

    //Set Text ARGB Color
    paint.setARGB(255, 255, 255, 255);

    //Turn AntiAliasing On
    paint.setAntiAlias(true);

    //Set Text Size
    paint.setTextSize(SkIntToScalar(30));

    //Set Image Width & Height
    SkScalar width = 800;
    SkScalar height = 600;

    SkBitmap bitmap;
    bitmap.setConfig(SkBitmap::kARGB_8888_Config, width, height);
    bitmap.allocPixels();

    //Create Canvas
    SkCanvas canvas(bitmap);
    canvas.drawARGB(255, 101, 33, 131);

    //Text X, Y Position Varibles
    SkScalar x = 80;
    SkScalar y = 60;

    canvas.drawText(text.c_str(), text.size(), x, y, paint);

    //Set Style and Stroke Width
    paint.setStyle(SkPaint::kStroke_Style);
    paint.setStrokeWidth(10);

    //Draw A Rectangle
    SkRect rect;
    paint.setARGB(255, 0, 0, 0);
    //Left, Top, Right, Bottom
    rect.set(50, 100, 200, 200);
    canvas.drawRoundRect(rect, 20, 20, paint);


    //Draw A Line
    canvas.drawLine(10, 300, 300, 300, paint);

    //Draw Circle (X, Y, Size, Paint)
    canvas.drawCircle(100, 400, 50, paint);

    //Same Image  (file, bitmap, image_type, quality)
    SkImageEncoder::EncodeFile(path.c_str(), bitmap, SkImageEncoder::kPNG_Type, 100);

    return 0;

2sb6glk.png
Larger View

Last edited by zester (2011-09-06 16:46:53)

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#8 2011-09-06 17:37:34

Teho
Member
Registered: 2010-01-30
Posts: 200

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

1. Nokia still developes Qt and it has way more developers now than what it had before Nokia aquired Trolltech. Has Nokia even actually fired any of the Qt toolkit staff?
2. Digia has opensourced their bugfixes (http://blog.qt.nokia.com/2011/07/08/dig … -qt-4-6-4/).
3. Intel dropping MeeGo support is still just a rumor (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20110901PD217.html), they haven't announced anything.


HP Elitebook 8560w | Arch Linux | KDE

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#9 2011-09-06 17:51:38

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Teho wrote:
zester wrote:

It's just that Qt has pretty much lost all there financial backing. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore and they outsourced there commercial offerings to digia. Intel just announced there dropping Meego and going with Win7-8 and Android.

1. Nokia still developes Qt and it has way more developers now than what it had before Nokia aquired Trolltech. Has Nokia even actually fired any of the Qt toolkit staff?
2. Digia has opensourced their bugfixes (http://blog.qt.nokia.com/2011/07/08/dig … -qt-4-6-4/).
3. Intel dropping MeeGo support is still just a rumor (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20110901PD217.html), they haven't announced anything.

1. They don't have Nokia, Intel devices to develop for anymore <-- Devices as in hardware and they don't. Nokia isn't building anymore devices for Qt or Meego and all those developers came from
Nokia to develop on symbian with Qt but symbian is dead. And I said nothing about anyone getting fired.
2. What does Digia and there bugfixes have to do with anything I said they outsourced commercial offerings to digia.
3. Supposedly but Intels comment to the rumor was that they were going to continue to support Meego and Open Source and not
that there current plans of developing and shipping Meego devices were still in effect. Thats a huge difference. Meego doesn't need Intels code it needs it's devices!

Look I am not trying to argue with you all I am saying is that from my point of view someone who is well respected in the KDE, Qt, Blender, Ogre3D, Irrlicht, Horde3D, Gamekit, SFML community's, and has been highly praised by the contributors and developers of these Applications/Librarys. That from my own personal test's with Qt5 from the git repos. and from what little information that I have been able to gather from KDE/Qt devs and the developers that I personal am in contact with on a daily bases. That Qt5 in conjunction with Highpoly models and Advanced game development at this point isn't looking very good. Haveing all your application sitting on the GPU and then having a ultra highpoly game also sitting on the GPU isn't going to workout very well at all.

And that my decision for the time being to stick with and hack on/develop my own personal Qt4 fork is justifiably.

Now if we may let's put the previous topic behind us and continue a more worthwhile and productive conversation on how Qt4 and Qt4 applications can be developed and improved.

Last edited by zester (2011-09-06 18:25:56)

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#10 2011-09-06 20:23:27

fsckd
Forum Moderator
Registered: 2009-06-15
Posts: 3,575

Re: Future of QT and KDE

I felt this discussion is viable on its own and split it from here.
If anyone knows of an existing thread on this topic, please let me know and I'll merge. Thanks.


aur S & M :: forum rules :: Community Ethos
Resources for Women, POC, LGBT*, and allies

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#11 2011-09-06 22:07:43

kachelaqa
Member
Registered: 2010-09-26
Posts: 215

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

Look I am not trying to argue with you all I am saying is that from my point of view someone who is well respected in the KDE, Qt, Blender, Ogre3D, Irrlicht, Horde3D, Gamekit, SFML community's, and has been highly praised by the contributors and developers of these Applications/Librarys. That from my own personal test's with Qt5 from the git repos. and from what little information that I have been able to gather from KDE/Qt devs and the developers that I personal am in contact with on a daily bases. That Qt5 in conjunction with Highpoly models and Advanced game development at this point isn't looking very good. Haveing all your application sitting on the GPU and then having a ultra highpoly game also sitting on the GPU isn't going to workout very well at all.

And that my decision for the time being to stick with and hack on/develop my own personal Qt4 fork is justifiably.

Now if we may let's put the previous topic behind us and continue a more worthwhile and productive conversation on how Qt4 and Qt4 applications can be developed and improved.

expressing personal opinions is fine (this is a public forum after all), but if you're going to make a lot of factual claims on a big subject like the future of qt/kde, i think you should be prepared to cite your sources.

let people make up their own minds whether any of your various proposals are "worthwhile and productive".

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#12 2011-09-06 23:08:19

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

from my point of view

Sure I have no problem with that if only sorting those old Qt Develop Blog post was as strait forward. There is one that i am pulling my hair out trying to find. Were a high ranking Qt Developer specifically address my concern regarding Qt5/Wayland and Hardware acceleration. With the comment that there are other chipsets besides Ati and Nvidia with hardware acceleration. He acknowledged the fact that Wayland will probably never see hardware acceleration via At/Nvidia binary blobs.


Well there are no other chipsets with hardware acceleration in regards to 1 million polys in combination to shaders.
And you can't build the types of games that I have been working on for 4 years without hardware acceleration.

Hell my Nvidia card has more power than my Intel Core I7

Last edited by zester (2011-09-06 23:21:37)

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#13 2011-09-06 23:35:26

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Here is just one of the many discussion's I have had.

http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/05/13/qt- … onference/

Steven wrote:

Steven June 6, 2011 at 6:39 am

I just don’t get all this Wayland hype, for it to work properly on Nvidia cards, Nvidia would have to add some code to the kernel to support kernel mode setting, which would require the Nvidia driver to be GPL. This will never ever happen. Wayland is vapor-ware just forget about it.

Thiago Macieira wrote:

NVidia is not the only video card manufacturer. And their proprietary driver not even the only option for their own cards.

Besides, NVidia cards already support embedded systems without X, albeit with other solutions besides Wayland. And they do this without KMS.

Finally, vapourware is software that never becomes concrete. You cannot tell the people who are actually doing the work that their work is vapour. That’s just plain insulting. I’ve seen it running, I’ve worked with the people making a reality. What is your contribution?

Steven wrote:

I’ve been contributing to Linux and KDE opensource software development for as long as KDE has existed.

My point is the opensource community finally has AAA game development library’s, that need those proprietary Nvidia drivers to compete on the same level as other platforms.

I would absolutely love to see a modern replacement for X even if that meant we had to start from scratch and rewrite all legacy applications, not saying we would.

But I have personally spoken with the Nvidia devs that produce the linux driver, and there just not going to go for wayland. And the Intel, Nouveau driver’s just don’t come close to the
proprietary AMD/Ati and Nvidia offerings.

“NVidia cards already support embedded systems without X”
You mean on Mesa without hardware acceleration? Yah Ive seen that trick also.

Thiago Macieira wrote:

No, I meant full hardware-accelerated, non-X NVidia systems (Tegra II). It exists. It might not be freely available though.

Anyway, the point is that we’re not stopping for “I don’t have a driver”. We are going to optimise for the case where you do.


In the Qt World Thiago Macieira is about has high ranking as they get besides Lars Knoll. We settled our little spat at the Qt Conference via irc. And sorry Thiago but Tegra 2 is a mobile thing it's not going to cut it for my use case. You don't do AAA on a Tegra lol



Do some digging of your own. You will see that there solution to the problem is always a mobile platform solution. Well mobile does not equal Desktop and those use cases where a Nvidia chip do work with out X are not available to the public. Why because it violates the GPL in one form or another.

Hell the whole Qt Quick/QML ordeal is a mobile platform focused thing.
Not saying it's a bad thing just that Qt5 development will not be desktop driven but mobile platform driven. Why well follow the money my friend.

Last edited by zester (2011-09-06 23:56:17)

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#14 2011-09-07 00:04:34

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/05/12/qt- … -the-list/

QtSvg
Overall module state: Deprecated
New maintainer required
Reasoning: SVG Full (as opposed to SVG Tiny) functionality available in QtWebKit, which should be used instead; we welcome research for a replacement for the SVG-generating code.


Note: SVG Full (as opposed to SVG Tiny) functionality available in QtWebKit, which should be used instead; 


As I said before in regards to QtSvg, Guess what QtWebKit is no replacement when developing a Drawing application that saves as Svg or Rendering Svg graphics on the desktop.

Now let me go find the previous blog where the BIG fight happened in regards to QtSvg


I have emails also but I cant show you those for obvious reasons.

And all SVG Tiny means is that it doesn't have animation, well you don't need animations for desktop graphics or a vector drawing application.





QFileSystemWatcher
State: Deprecated
Reasoning: flawed design, a replacement is required. We’re open for ideas in that area.  <--- LOL that is soooo funny because it has never worked right only took them like 10 years to be like crap we need to replace this thing.

Last edited by zester (2011-09-07 00:17:36)

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#15 2011-09-07 00:14:12

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,472

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

He acknowledged the fact that Wayland will probably never see hardware acceleration via At/Nvidia binary blobs.

And you (him too, for that matter) know that how? Currently Wayland only works on top of KMS, but the keyword is "currently". There's nothing in it's design that says "KMS or bust", it wouldn't be hard to get it working on top of another modesetting solution. And Nvidia's modesetting isn't tied to X, they've been doing kernel modesetting since forever.

If this is your only problem - a fear that there won't be Nvidia+Wayland, then there is no problem. There's nothing in the design of either that would prevent such a combo. That Nvidia's current plans don't involve Wayland... Well, again there's the keyword "current". Just wait for Wayland to reach a stage where you can actually run a full system on top of it.

Last edited by Gusar (2011-09-07 00:15:37)

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#16 2011-09-07 00:34:09

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Gusar wrote:
zester wrote:

He acknowledged the fact that Wayland will probably never see hardware acceleration via At/Nvidia binary blobs.

And you (him too, for that matter) know that how? Currently Wayland only works on top of KMS, but the keyword is "currently". There's nothing in it's design that says "KMS or bust", it wouldn't be hard to get it working on top of another modesetting solution. And Nvidia's modesetting isn't tied to X, they've been doing kernel modesetting since forever.

If this is your only problem - a fear that there won't be Nvidia+Wayland, then there is no problem. There's nothing in the design of either that would prevent such a combo. That Nvidia's current plans don't involve Wayland... Well, again there's the keyword "current". Just wait for Wayland to reach a stage where you can actually run a full system on top of it.

You didnt read my previous post and Thiago Macieira is one of the developers with Qt Development Frameworks in Nokia who is working directly with wayland for lighthouse. And modesetting solution isn't the problem. It's the GPL violation of a Binary Blob that operates on that level. Hence why Nvidia won't touch it. It's not going to matter where they put that driver if it touches the kernel at that layer. And Linus doesn't have the final say any kernel developer who has a single peices of code in the kernel can call Nvidia out on the violation.

Would you like me to site sources where kernel developers have said that they don't care what linus says in regards to shipping the Nvidia
driver on an iso as a separate package not installed is a GPL violation and there willing to go to court over the matter?

Last edited by zester (2011-09-07 00:38:11)

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#17 2011-09-07 00:43:08

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,472

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

And modesetting solution isn't the problem. It's the GPL violation of a Binary Blob that operates on that level. Hence why Nvidia won't touch it.

Nvidia *already* uses kernel modesetting. Have so since forever. So I have no idea what GPL violation you mean here, and what has changed now that Wayland is around.

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#18 2011-09-07 00:52:37

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

They Piggy-backing on GLX which is licensed SGI FreeB License(basically MIT) and there able to avoid the direct GPL violation but
they wont have that safeguard with KMS. And by the way KMS is a requirement for not only wayland but also the open source nvidia driver
and I doubt there going to change that for the sake of the Nvidia binary driver

Last edited by zester (2011-09-07 00:55:28)

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#19 2011-09-07 00:57:32

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Gusar wrote:
zester wrote:

And modesetting solution isn't the problem. It's the GPL violation of a Binary Blob that operates on that level. Hence why Nvidia won't touch it.

Nvidia *already* uses kernel modesetting. Have so since forever. So I have no idea what GPL violation you mean here, and what has changed now that Wayland is around.

Whooo there I just checked Nvidia Binary Driver Does NOT in fact support KMS you need to check your facts there.
Nouveau drivers has KMS support.


And yes with our GLX Nvida would violate the GPL hence why Nvidia Binary will not be supporting KMS.

Last edited by zester (2011-09-07 01:01:49)

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#20 2011-09-07 01:01:42

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,472

Re: Future of QT and KDE

zester wrote:

They Piggy-backing on GLX which is licensed SGI FreeB License(basically MIT).

What does GLX have to do with kernel modesetting?

zester wrote:

And by the way KMS is a requirement for not only wayland

Like I said *current* requirement. But it's not inherent in Wayland's design and accommodating other solutions wouldn't be hard. And the Wayland devs are willing to accommodate them.

zester wrote:

Whooo there I just checked Nvidia Binary Driver Does NOT in fact support KMS you need to check your facts there.

Nowhere did I say it did.

Last edited by Gusar (2011-09-07 01:03:49)

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#21 2011-09-07 01:04:22

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Gusar wrote:
zester wrote:

They Piggy-backing on GLX which is licensed SGI FreeB License(basically MIT).

What does GLX have to do with kernel modesetting?

zester wrote:

And by the way KMS is a requirement for not only wayland

Like I said *current* requirement. But it's not inherent in Wayland's design and accommodating other solutions wouldn't be hard. And the Wayland devs are willing to accommodate them.

You blew any credibility you had when you claimed that the Nvidia Binary driver supported KMS and has for a long time. You actually had me second guess my self.

Last edited by zester (2011-09-07 01:05:53)

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#22 2011-09-07 01:06:46

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,433

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Gusar wrote:
zester wrote:

And modesetting solution isn't the problem. It's the GPL violation of a Binary Blob that operates on that level. Hence why Nvidia won't touch it.

Nvidia *already* uses kernel modesetting. Have so since forever. So I have no idea what GPL violation you mean here, and what has changed now that Wayland is around.

Gusar, what do you mean by "Nvidia *already* uses kernel modesetting. Have so since forever."?

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#23 2011-09-07 01:07:42

Gusar
Member
Registered: 2009-08-25
Posts: 3,472

Re: Future of QT and KDE

karol wrote:

Gusar, what do you mean by "Nvidia *already* uses kernel modesetting. Have so since forever."?

Exactly that. They use kernel modesetting since forever. Since way before KMS existed.

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#24 2011-09-07 01:08:32

zester
Member
From: Wilkes Barre Pa
Registered: 2011-08-13
Posts: 156
Website

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Gusar do you even know why we need GLX for 3D?

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#25 2011-09-07 01:09:01

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,433

Re: Future of QT and KDE

Gusar wrote:
karol wrote:

Gusar, what do you mean by "Nvidia *already* uses kernel modesetting. Have so since forever."?

Exactly that. They use kernel modesetting since forever. Since way before KMS existed.

They're using their own implementation like with libgl?

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