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#1 2010-08-20 16:34:53

marfig
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From: Portugal
Registered: 2010-07-30
Posts: 189
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Community repo (sustainability)

I'm not familiar with the details of the process involved in maintaining the community repository. However, as an Arch user I witness some of its faults. If these faults are a reason to evaluate or not how things are being done, or to gauge the Community repository quality, I leave it to those in the know. But when a package that has a hard kernel dependency is upgraded in the Community repo and that package doesn't include an essential module which renders it virtually useless, I get annoyed. I need to rollback both package and kernel upgrade. I'd expect from the community repo, what I don't ask in AUR; care.

I'm not judgmental of the TU (or any other TU for that matter). I fully understand and appreciate all the hard work that they brought upon themselves and the dedication they often show. However when a TU is maintaining well above 1000 packages, something got to be wrong in the humble opinion of this user of yours. It's expected that gross mistakes will eventually happen. And it's when I lose confidence in the Community repo and wonder if it's just not AUR with appointed people to give it a the proper look of an official repo. If the policy is to hold everything that is humanly possible in Community, even if at the end of a string, I think that makes more damage than good.

The incident isn't isolated. They happen not because we have bad TU (of that I'm positive). But almost certainly because we have overtaxed TUs, either by choice or imposition. Anyways... all this is my my opinion. I'm however, as a user, asked to adhere to the Arch Way. Complexity without complication. I don't expect this to have a double meaning.


I probably made this post longer than it should only because I lack the time to make it shorter.
- Paraphrased from Blaise Pascal

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#2 2010-08-20 16:47:55

karol
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Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

I think the TUs are free to maintain as many packages as they please. If it's not in Community many people will whine that it has hundreds of votes in AUR and "Oh why not move it into Community".

You are free to show you're fit for a TU and eventually become one.

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#3 2010-08-20 16:50:25

wonder
Developer
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 5,937
Website

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

marfig wrote:

I'm not familiar with the details of the process involved in maintaining the community repository. However, as an Arch user I witness some of its faults. If these faults are a reason to evaluate or not how things are being done, or to gauge the Community repository quality, I leave it to those in the know. But when a package that has a hard kernel dependency is upgraded in the Community repo and that package doesn't include an essential module which renders it virtually useless, I get annoyed. I need to rollback both package and kernel upgrade. I'd expect from the community repo, what I don't ask in AUR; care.

this things happen and most cases are upstream issues. i know about powertop and it was a mistake but vmware modules seems to be because upstream deprecated something i guess.(lets see how the bug report is going)

I'm not judgmental of the TU (or any other TU for that matter). I fully understand and appreciate all the hard work that they brought upon themselves and the dedication they often show. However when a TU is maintaining well above 1000 packages, something got to be wrong in the humble opinion of this user of yours. It's expected that gross mistakes will eventually happen. And it's when I lose confidence in the Community repo and wonder if it's just not AUR with appointed people to give it a the proper look of an official repo. If the policy is to hold everything that is humanly possible in Community, even if at the end of a string, I think that makes more damage than good.

i fully agree with you. our TUs and developers teams is way to small compared with the amount of packages that we have in the repos. What about applying as TU and help us maintaining(translation getting rid of crap from our repos) ?

Last edited by wonder (2010-08-20 16:51:17)


Give what you have. To someone, it may be better than you dare to think.

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#4 2010-08-20 17:00:43

marfig
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From: Portugal
Registered: 2010-07-30
Posts: 189
Website

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

It will be my pleasure and honor, when the time comes I'm ready to that commitment. Until then however I'd love to see either an increase in TUs (the nomination process doesn't depend on me) and possibly a change of culture; Maintaining a package is not the same as building a package.

Last edited by marfig (2010-08-20 17:01:08)


I probably made this post longer than it should only because I lack the time to make it shorter.
- Paraphrased from Blaise Pascal

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#5 2010-08-20 17:09:56

wonder
Developer
From: Bucharest, Romania
Registered: 2006-07-05
Posts: 5,937
Website

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

marfig wrote:

It will be my pleasure and honor, when the time comes I'm ready to that commitment. Until then however I'd love to see either an increase in TUs (the nomination process doesn't depend on me) and possibly a change of culture; Maintaining a package is not the same as building a package.

the nomination doesn't depend on us. users from our community are stepping up and want to help. we are just voting them


Give what you have. To someone, it may be better than you dare to think.

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#6 2010-08-20 18:15:08

Inxsible
Forum Fellow
From: Chicago
Registered: 2008-06-09
Posts: 9,133

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

Read the TU Guidelines which state how you can apply to become a TU. For obvious reasons, you have to be whetted by your past work. But it's not a huge deal to become a TU as long as you can prove you are capable.

The last time I checked, there are 17 TUs (I am not sure if that number includes  the people who are listed as Developer/TU -- of which wonder is one) -- that number is way too less for the amount of packages we have.


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#7 2010-08-20 21:20:17

Runiq
Member
From: Germany
Registered: 2008-10-29
Posts: 1,053

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

I thought about applying before, but the bylaws seem a bit strict (yes, I know that's for a reason—people don't want badly maintained packages in [community]). I feel I have enough to do with the few AUR packages I maintain. wink

Seriously, how do you manage to maintain 1000+ packages?

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#8 2010-08-20 22:31:51

Allan
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From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,926
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Re: Community repo (sustainability)

The TU who manages "1000+" (actually only 879) packages has a disproportionately small number of bug reports and no packages flagged out of date.  So is it really an issue?

I maintain just under 100 packages and used to maintain closer to 200 without too much taxing of my time.  I could easily see maintaining multiple times that many, especially when they are relatively easy to package and have few updates.

Anyway, I am always saying that I would like to see ~5x more TUs than we currently have.  The repos should be a pyramid in terms of number of packages but at the moment [community] is not that different from [extra].  So anyone who has the skill, do apply.  The bar really is not that high... and it is perfectly fine to maintain <10 packages.

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#9 2010-08-20 22:40:14

karol
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Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

@ Allan
You mean you want less packages in extra or more in community?

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#10 2010-08-20 22:45:06

Allan
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From: Brisbane, AU
Registered: 2007-06-09
Posts: 10,926
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Re: Community repo (sustainability)

Well, at least more in [community].  There is probably a lot of stuff in [extra] that could go there too if we had more TUs.

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#11 2010-08-20 22:51:39

marfig
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 2010-07-30
Posts: 189
Website

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

If there's a lack of applicants (and that seems to be the case from how I'm reading your posts), then definitely this a tough problem. And maybe that's the problem one should be looking at instead.


I probably made this post longer than it should only because I lack the time to make it shorter.
- Paraphrased from Blaise Pascal

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#12 2010-08-21 02:23:23

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,246

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

Well yes, there's a problem. Its called 'human nature' smile.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#13 2010-08-21 02:37:02

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

ngoonee wrote:

Well yes, there's a problem. Its called 'human nature' smile.

[completely OT but maybe funny]
Now that's scary. I've just finished listening to that song.
[/OT]

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#14 2010-08-21 02:37:56

marfig
Member
From: Portugal
Registered: 2010-07-30
Posts: 189
Website

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

Well, human nature, being the nature of humans, is not a problem. It's a feature. smile
Problems are solvable.

Personally, it worries me there's so few applicants, if any. Or so few applicants that meet the requirements. I'm not sure where the problem resides. If on the success of AUR, if on too stringent requirements for TU, if on the lack of another type of maintainer in Community that could act as a TU helper and gain experience and ease the workload on the TU on their way to full TUs  (say, a TH trusted helper). But I'm sure you folks are -- or will be sometime soon -- on top of it.

Last edited by marfig (2010-08-21 02:39:10)


I probably made this post longer than it should only because I lack the time to make it shorter.
- Paraphrased from Blaise Pascal

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#15 2010-08-21 02:41:12

Inxsible
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2008-06-09
Posts: 9,133

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

if the TH is a step down from TU -- I am assuming you mean that the TH will not have all the privs that TU has -- would create additional work IMO. The TU will then have to verify everything that the TH does before packaging something into the repos.

I as a programmer would much rather do something myself than have to look over someone else's code tongue


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#16 2010-08-21 02:54:56

marfig
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From: Portugal
Registered: 2010-07-30
Posts: 189
Website

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

Well, I don't know really. It was one thought that occurred to me. I agree it came out as a suggestion, though...

But if I were to elaborate, we could think of a TH as someone who actually uses the packages they are maintaining and has proved their competence and responsibility in AUR or somewhere else. Under the arm of a TU they would be fully responsible for these packages, like junior coders are without this meaning senior coders have to intervene unless something horribly wrong happens. However this senior/junior is a misnomer. We are talking about responsible and competent people.  How you become one... I'm unsure. Maybe TUs periodically publish news on packages they would like to be removed from and the community applies.

But as I said in the first post I'm not aware of the history and past experiences of Arch in general and the community repo in particular. So this may all come as nonsense to you and I'm perfectly fine with that. If anything, on my path to apply to TU I start by criticizing the Community repo.


I probably made this post longer than it should only because I lack the time to make it shorter.
- Paraphrased from Blaise Pascal

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#17 2010-08-21 04:13:23

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,246

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

You just described the typical TU I think....


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#18 2010-08-21 04:17:22

cesura
Trusted User (TU)
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 1,867

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

I would be interested in maintaining packages in [community]. I just think I would need to make more AUR packages to qualify (it's difficult to find something to package that's not already in the AUR). Anything I should do to "help" my chances (besides too much free time. I already have that tongue)?

Last edited by cesura (2010-08-21 04:19:06)

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#19 2010-08-21 04:19:31

karol
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Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

itsbrad212 wrote:

I would be interested in maintaining packages in [community]. I just think I would need to make more AUR packages to qualify (It's difficult to find something to package that's not already in the AUR).

I think a TU you can adopt any package.

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#20 2010-08-21 04:20:56

cesura
Trusted User (TU)
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 1,867

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

karol wrote:
itsbrad212 wrote:

I would be interested in maintaining packages in [community]. I just think I would need to make more AUR packages to qualify (It's difficult to find something to package that's not already in the AUR).

I think a TU you can adopt any package.

Are you saying that "a TU can adopt any package" or "adopting orphaned packages and maintaining them would help my chances" ?

Last edited by cesura (2010-08-21 04:21:22)

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#21 2010-08-21 04:28:50

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

itsbrad212 wrote:
karol wrote:
itsbrad212 wrote:

I would be interested in maintaining packages in [community]. I just think I would need to make more AUR packages to qualify (It's difficult to find something to package that's not already in the AUR).

I think a TU you can adopt any package.

Are you saying that "a TU can adopt any package" or "adopting orphaned packages would help my chances" ?

I meant the former, because I misread your post, but the latter holds too.

Last edited by karol (2010-08-21 04:31:12)

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#22 2010-08-21 04:35:04

cesura
Trusted User (TU)
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 1,867

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

karol wrote:
itsbrad212 wrote:
karol wrote:

I think a TU you can adopt any package.

Are you saying that "a TU can adopt any package" or "adopting orphaned packages would help my chances" ?

I meant the former, because I misread your post, but the latter holds too.

The problem with maintaining random packages is that I would forget to keep checking upstream, especially when I am maintaining many packages. That's why the only reason I submit a package to the AUR is because it's not already in there and I will be using that package (so I have an incentive to update it). Either that or if someone requests a PKGBUILD.

If we could have a larger group of TUs that maintain packages that are actually of use to them, I think we would have more up-to-date packages and more packages in [community] overall.

Last edited by cesura (2010-08-21 04:36:24)

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#23 2010-08-21 04:37:20

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,246

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

I suggest automating the 'check upstream' process. Requires a bit of work on your part (finding the correct source), but normally there's either an 'announce' ML or a user ML where announcements are made.

What I do is use the Update Scanner firefox addon to monitor the download/release pages of packages I maintain (which isn't very many, but still).


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#24 2010-08-21 04:40:28

cesura
Trusted User (TU)
From: Tallinn, Estonia
Registered: 2010-01-23
Posts: 1,867

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

ngoonee wrote:

I suggest automating the 'check upstream' process.

I actually was considering making that in the past. yikes It's just that a new entry with varying version sources might have to be added for each package. I would probably attempt something like that if I wasn't so caught up in my other Arch project that will be announced shortly wink

*nudge* Xyne?

Last edited by cesura (2010-08-21 04:41:29)

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#25 2010-08-21 04:47:07

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Community repo (sustainability)

itsbrad212 wrote:
ngoonee wrote:

I suggest automating the 'check upstream' process.

I actually was considering making that in the past. yikes It's just that a new entry with varying version sources might have to be added for each package. I would probably attempt something like that if I wasn't so caught up in my other Arch project that will be announced shortly wink

*nudge* Xyne?

If it's a -git or similar flavor the download sources don't really change.

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