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#1 2010-08-24 23:23:43

naguz
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Registered: 2008-11-05
Posts: 95

Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

After spending two hours debugging a bloody java applet accessing a smart card trough pcsclite (Buypass used for different services in Norway, including  government services) it turns out it failed because it ONLY looked for 64bit libs in /usr/lib64. As arch stores 64bit libs in plain old /usr/lib on a 64bit system, this obivously failed. Two hours someone stole from me by doing a sloppy job! Argh!. And I should have been in bed at least one and a half hour ago too. tongue

I know Debian does this symlinking, and as there apparently are idiots out there who do stuff like above, making such a symlink could save someone some major hassle. I guess it's not to easy for developers of such apps either, as you have to avoid loading libs from /usr/lib before looking for them in /usr/lib64, or else you will get a 32bit lib on Fedora/RedHat and Suse, if both 32bit libs and 64bit ones are installed. Of course you should look for the lib in /usr/lib if you don't find something in /usr/li64, but I guess some don't. Grrrr.

As there really are no agreed "best pracitce" for where libs of different arch should go (that I could find anyway), such a symlink makes sense to me.

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#2 2010-08-25 01:57:19

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
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Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

Symlinking that would totally preclude the possibility of a multilib system, AFAIK. These things should be dealt with at the app-level first, or at the packaging level, not at the distro level.


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#3 2010-08-25 04:17:00

sand_man
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From: Australia
Registered: 2008-06-10
Posts: 2,164

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

When a package is built, it should be up to the maintainer to make the build script point to the correct location.
The OS shouldn't adjust to accommodate for a few poorly build applications.


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#4 2010-08-25 20:09:38

naguz
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Registered: 2008-11-05
Posts: 95

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

ngoonee wrote:

Symlinking that would totally preclude the possibility of a multilib system, AFAIK. These things should be dealt with at the app-level first, or at the packaging level, not at the distro level.

Making a lib64 folder and symlinking it to lib on a 64bit system would make no difference on a 64bit system what so ever (as native libs are placed in lib folder in arch, and lib64 never would be used for 32bit packages anyway).

And what app level are you guys talking about? When did you ever see a third party web based java applet in a repo?

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#5 2010-08-25 21:40:55

tomk
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From: Ireland
Registered: 2004-07-21
Posts: 9,835

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

naguz wrote:

making such a symlink could save someone some major hassle.

Your concern for "someone" may be influenced by the fact that you are the "someone" in this particular case. smile

This is the first request of this nature that I've seen, so it's possible the number of similar "someones" in the the Arch community is low. Submit a feature request on the bugtracker - the devs will definitely see that, and respond in due course.

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#6 2010-08-26 12:37:34

R00KIE
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From: Between a computer and a chair
Registered: 2008-09-14
Posts: 2,964

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

Maybe you should look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem … y_Standard
/usr/lib is for shared libraries, 32bit ones if it is a 32bit OS, 64bit ones if it is a 64bit OS. 64bit Arch has no intention to officially be multilib and it tries to stick to the FHS directives as much as possible.

Like others have said, if a 64bit program is properly built it will look for libraries in /usr/lib, the ones that don't look there are closed source programs built for multilib distros, and for those if things get eerie better get a chroot of a supported distro anyway and avoid all the possible borks and headaches of trying to run it in an unsupported distro.

Besides, any program can try to find the libraries it needs in /usr/lib64, if it doesn't find them look in /usr/lib and try to load the libraries, if they are for 32bit instead of 64bit (or vice versa) it will fail to load them and explode in the normal way, maybe you could contact the developer(s) of that applet and expose your problem.


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#7 2010-08-26 12:47:08

Vermillion
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From: Switzerland
Registered: 2010-08-13
Posts: 43

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

I run in such a problem, too. But after researching and 'hacking' around i found that this is not a problem of your distro it's just a bad written program. And arranging your OS around such programs will break it. Maybe not suddenly but over time you will run in inconsistency and break your system....

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#8 2010-08-26 14:01:50

Themaister
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From: Horten, Norway
Registered: 2008-07-21
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Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

I just did the symlink myself.

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#9 2010-08-26 15:33:56

.:B:.
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Registered: 2006-11-26
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Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

Given that Arch Linux x86_64 is 'pure' x86_64, it makes no sense to provide a /usr/lib64/ dir. It only makes sense on a multilib distro.


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#10 2010-08-29 12:17:52

naguz
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Registered: 2008-11-05
Posts: 95

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

R00kie (and others): Just to clarify, this is not running a third party app installed on myt machine. This is a problem I ran into running a java applet on a website that uses the pcsclite shared library for authentication purposes using Smart Cards.Running a java-applet is not something I did on "distro that is not supported", especially
when they state that they "support linux" without further info.

While I know perfectly well that /usr/lib is the traditional place to store native libs (and I have not suggested we MOVE anything anywhere either) there are no standardized place, AFAIK, to put 64bit libs in across multilib an no-multilib distros. This may cause (and obviously have caused) someone to simply assume that 64 bit libs can always be found in /usr/lib64 - this is probably helped by the fact that Debian and Ubuntu symlink a /usr/lib64-folder to /usr/lb in their 64-bit versions.

Though making changes to accomodate developers who does it the wrong way is in itself not a goal, this problem is quite difficult to debug. Compaies like these usually use externally developed systems, and have no way of helping you when it doesn't work in "linux, you say? Not xP ow Vista or 7?" And i thought a simple symlink to avoid such problems is not that big a deal.

Judging from the responses I have gotten here  (even though have half clearly haven't even bothered to read my post) I guess the popular opinion is hat a symlink that can avoid some problems and in no way cause any, is just too invasive even in this case. That's fine. f everybody got their will in these modifications and adaptions, there wouldn't be much of the KISS we all love left, I guess.

edit@ tomk: Well, I have alreay made myself my own symlink, so while you have a point,doing this now wouldnt help me one bit.

Last edited by naguz (2010-08-29 12:20:37)

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#11 2010-08-29 17:54:16

Inxsible
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From: Chicago
Registered: 2008-06-09
Posts: 9,059

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

naguz wrote:

edit@ tomk: Well, I have alreay made myself my own symlink, so while you have a point,doing this now wouldnt help me one bit.

So If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that now that you have found a solution to do what you need, you do not want to spend time to file a bug report? That's a pretty selfish thing to do.

You want the developers to create symlinks for you by default, but you are not willing to even report something like that on the bug tracker.


And on a side note: Please don't accuse people of not reading the posts etc. IMO, they have and only then bothered to comment. What you think is "the right way" may not be for others. And I certainly don't think that the devs go by the "popular opinion" of the community members. If they feel that something needs to be done, they will. All the more reason for you to file a bug report/feature request on the tracker


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#12 2010-08-30 00:28:35

naguz
Member
Registered: 2008-11-05
Posts: 95

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

Inxsible wrote:

So If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that now that you have found a solution to do what you need, you do not want to spend time to file a bug report? That's a pretty selfish thing to do.

You want the developers to create symlinks for you by default, but you are not willing to even report something like that on the bug tracker.

You misunderstand me. tomk said my concern for "someone" having problems might be because I was this "someone".  While he has a point (I wouldn't have brought this up if it hadn't caused me problems - wouldnt even know about it), it was not to solve my own problem I started this thread - my problem was already fixed.  That was what I meant. Fixing this now would not benefit me, and as I solved my problem before starting this thread, my benefit was not my goal. As soon as i realized I could fix this with a symlink, I fixed it with a symlink. And after happily using my smartcard in that stupid java applet, then I started this thread.

While I certainly could post a bug report, I was not really sure if this was a bug. And based on the response I got here, it seemed it wasn't, and that people think those requiring a symlink should make their own.

The sidenote about people answering to the thread without reading my posts was made because  people obviously missed the part of this being about a java applet, and therefore is not something in some arch TU messed up while packaging. No biggie, though.

After reading R00kies post, I actually DID read about FHS, and it appears to me that the AMD64-arch SHOULD in deed have their libs in lib64, according to the  standard

So i guess a bug report is in order after all, so the devs atleast can have a look on it. But not until after school and work tomorrow.

ngoonee: By the way, this would not preclude a mulilib system, this is how all the multilib distros I know of do this.

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#13 2010-08-30 02:25:21

skottish
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From: Here
Registered: 2006-06-16
Posts: 7,931

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

naguz wrote:

After reading R00kies post, I actually DID read about FHS, and it appears to me that the AMD64-arch SHOULD in deed have their libs in lib64, according to the  standard

A proposed "standard" from six years ago and based only on distros that are multilib? I mean no offense here, but this "standard" only exists for some multilib distros, which Arch is not.

Last edited by skottish (2010-08-30 02:26:52)

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#14 2010-08-30 21:41:47

naguz
Member
Registered: 2008-11-05
Posts: 95

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

R00kie said Arch tries to stick to the FHS directive which is the one I linked to.Personally I have no idea what directoves arch tries to follow or not, I just like the KISS that actually puts me in charge of my machine. At least more so than any other distro I have tried, and my limited knowledge is now being the key limiting factor, instead of limts others impose. on me.

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#15 2010-08-31 13:21:41

R00KIE
Forum Moderator
From: Between a computer and a chair
Registered: 2008-09-14
Posts: 2,964

Re: Should arch symlink /usr/lib64 to /usr/lib?

I said that because I believe it to be the case, there are several "examples" in the mailling lists where things are adjusted/discussed to try and follow the fhs, I may be seeing it wrong though.

Besides, Arch is not a democracy, if the devs say there will be no lib64 then there will be no lib64, you can symlink and do whatever you want but if your install suddenly explodes not many people if any will be able to help you troubleshoot the problem.


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