Newbie Questions

schrammbo · 2012-03-31 13:38:40

OK let me first start by saying that I am a newbie to Linux in general. I have played around with just about every flavor of linux since RH 5.6 however, I am a windows admin for my career and a mac user since college way back in the early 90's.

Recently with the push from both Microsoft and Apple making my OS into a smartphone I started looking at Linux as a full time option. I have been running some flavor of Ubuntu since my decision to convert to linux. Most recently have decided on Kubuntu as my flavor of choice. Yet as I read the forums and newsgroups I read many people converting to Arch so I said to myself let me check it out.

Not feeling fully confident that I can build an arch system from the ground up, which will become ubundantly clear hear in a minute, I decided to go with archbang and go from there. Since I have not dabbled in anything that was not a debian build in quite some time most of arch is foriegn to me.

So my question is what makes Arch a better choice than say Kubuntu or Debian or many of the other big name distros out there?

I ask because I have been trying to upgrade my archbang installation since yesterday and it seems to me that just trying to get pacman running and installing updates for packer has taken way more effort than running apt. It could be I am just more familiar with apt and hence my problems with pacman but it should not take 24 hours to get a package manager up and running and install updates should it? From what I can tell packer has all but died out. I have not checked to see if it has become a zombie process yet or not but that is how it is acting.

I had a difficult time trying to get the system upgrade to work due to the libgl / various vendor drivers conflict to work. Whenever I would try to remove libgl it would tell me that the video drivers required it. When I tried to remove all the video drivers I was not using it would tell me libgl needed it. When I tried to remove them all at one time pacman would complain that dependancies were not met.

Its a learning curve I understand so I am just trying to get an idea of what makes this distro so great when the package manager does not even work correctly yet builds like Debian, RH etc seem to have their package manager functioning from the initial install point

terry.gardener · 2012-03-31 13:51:04

here is some opinions of why arch linux

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=118353

also i have recently reinstalled arch linux coming from ubuntu 12.04 and i also got the libgl problem when i installed the nvidia driver saying it would need to remove the libgl package and i just said yeah ok and it worked ok,

pacman seems slightly better to me than apt but there isn't much in it.

the best thing about arch is that you can setup your system how you want it, and also it is a rolling release so you don't need to upgarde the whole distro every 6 months.

Arch requires more patience but when every thing is setup you know that you have the latest packages and you dont need to upgarde twice a year. however the down side to getting the latest packages quicker is that sometimes somethings goes wrong and you have to fix it.

karol · 2012-03-31 13:55:12

These are Arch forums, if you need assistance with your ArchBang install -> http://bbs.archbang.org/

schrammbo wrote:

I had a difficult time trying to get the system upgrade to work due to the libgl / various vendor drivers conflict to work.

You should have just searched the forums, there are a few threads concerning this issue already.

In the future, please post the exact commands you used and the errors you got.

Crone · 2012-03-31 13:57:38

Hello and welcome to Arch Linux

I am new here aswell but I have been around linux for sometime (still newb though) so I will share with you my personal experience.

What makes Arch special is the fact that you actually need to take care and configure things that other distros have them ready and running.
These issues that you mention, is exactly that. The point is to "struggle" in order to get better in using Linux. Arch kind of forces you to get better.
For me this was a major factor to go for Arch. I wanted to learn some linux better but distros like Ubuntu,fedora,Mint have a lot of things ready. So yea...

Now from my understanding you are interested in linux having in mind that linux can help your work. This is definately true. However it is important to know if you
are up to setting everything yourself (it takes a lot of time and patience) or have some things ready and work from there. Linux is extremely powerful and Arch
fits the whole theory. Linux though is powerful in Ubuntu too which is more user-friendly. My point is that if you lack time maybe a more "ready" distro will fit you.
On the other side if you have the time and will, Arch is not going to disappoint you in the end because when you get the concept you are going to love how many
things you can understand.

But still this is my newbie opinion

Last edited by Crone (2012-03-31 14:01:52)

Silex89 · 2012-03-31 14:01:13

Hi!

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Ar … tributions <---- Useful read.

The Wiki is your friend

Regards and best of luck!

bohoomil · 2012-03-31 14:22:50

schrammbo wrote:

So my question is what makes Arch a better choice than say Kubuntu or Debian or many of the other big name distros out there?
I ask because I have been trying to upgrade my archbang installation since yesterday and it seems to me that just trying to get pacman running and installing updates for packer has taken way more effort than running apt. It could be I am just more familiar with apt and hence my problems with pacman but it should not take 24 hours to get a package manager up and running and install updates should it? From what I can tell packer has all but died out. I have not checked to see if it has become a zombie process yet or not but that is how it is acting.

First of all, Archbang is not Arch. Packer is not an officially supported application and it is not a part of the basic Arch installation. Therefore, if you've installed Archbang, you should ask for support on Archbang forums, following karol's advice.

What's more, there will never exist a satisfactory answer to the question what makes distro A better than B, as plenty depends on your background, your user / admin idiosyncratic habits, or philosophy behind each distribution. Those who mastered Debian will always successfully prove that Debian is the best distro because they get their job done with it. The answer to this question is solely up to you, as well as the more general one if Linux is a right pick for you at all. The only way to 'know if & why' is to gain experience and knowledge when working with Linux and learning it.

Anyway, good luck.

Last edited by bohoomil (2012-03-31 14:24:02)

ewaller · 2012-03-31 16:47:43

Moderator comment:

schrammbo,

Welcome to Linux. I think you are going to like it. As has been pointed out, this is Arch Linux, not Archbang. Your post was not clear whether you are running Archbang, or are converting to Arch from Archbang. Archbang is a derivative of Arch, but there are enough significant differences that we (actively) encourage that Archbang questions be asked on their forums so as not to create confusion on these forums.

That said, distributions such as Arch Linux, Archbang, and Gentoo are known as "rolling releases". Updates to the systems are incremental and are updated continually. This allows the systems to remain at the cutting edge of what is out in the world of Linux. Other distributions, such as Ubuntu, have formal releases which are released on a schedule (bimonthly, semiannually, etc... ) One must do a re-install of the OS when the new upgrade comes out. Those distributions do have bug and security updates between releases.

I do not not about Archbang, but with Arch, Gentoo and, to a lesser degree, Slackware, you will learn a great deal more as to what is under the hood. These distributions are very hands on; they all have excellent forums and wikis which you will be expected to read. I must warn that forum members on all of those distributions are quick to call you on it if they feel you have not done research. It is our culture

In closing, welcome to the Arch Linux forums. Please don't ask Archbang questions here, the threads will be closed. I am leaving this one open so long as it remains an Arch discussion.

Edit: Six typos!. Must find coffee.

Last edited by ewaller (2012-03-31 16:51:31)

schrammbo · 2012-04-01 00:16:57

karol wrote:

These are Arch forums, if you need assistance with your ArchBang install -> http://bbs.archbang.org/
schrammbo wrote:
I had a difficult time trying to get the system upgrade to work due to the libgl / various vendor drivers conflict to work.
You should have just searched the forums, there are a few threads concerning this issue already.
In the future, please post the exact commands you used and the errors you got.

I eventually figured out the problem and search many a forum to include the one you mentioned. The problem was not that I was getting the error the problem was that I was caught in a loop between you can't remove this but you have to remove it to move on. I eventually managed to get it using the --ignore libgl option and then removed everything after the upgrade finished using the -Rdd option.

My question was really more what makes arch better than what I have now or different enough to make the change.

Thanks for your response though

karol · 2012-04-01 00:23:51

schrammbo wrote:

you can't remove this but you have to remove it to move on

As I already suggested, I'd rather you posted some code, i.e. the commands you used, to avoid confusion. Calling some packages "it" or telling us you "then removed everything" is less helpful than the actual output.

I still don't know if you have kept the various *-dri packages.

schrammbo · 2012-04-01 00:25:18

Just so everyone knows; I understand that archbang is not arch. It is based in arch but yes I know they are not the same. I would liken it to arch being debian and archbang being ubuntu but maybe that is my lack of understanding. I am asking about arch because when I jump in both feet first I want to really jump in both feet first as I am considering setting up arch on my old PPC mac.

Yes I want to learn more about Linux and don't mind working through the issues just trying to figure out what makes Arch so great. Many of the forums I read people have switched to Arch and I am simply trying to figure out the pluses beyond it will help me waste many hours and lose lots of hair given my lack of Linux knowledge :-)

/dev/zero · 2012-04-01 01:06:17

bohoomil wrote:

What's more, there will never exist a satisfactory answer to the question what makes distro A better than B, as plenty depends on your background, your user / admin idiosyncratic habits, or philosophy behind each distribution.

Also, it's not like different distros can't be good for different things. Archlinux is good in it's niche; but I would still consider using Debian again if it seemed appropriate, say if I didn't have the time to administer and tinker with it, or if I knew the machine wasn't going to have a lot of internet access. I would definitely recommend a vanilla Debian install to anyone thinking about trying out Linux for the first time, rather than Arch. I put Debian on a netbook for a 6 year old and I've never had any complaints and never any need to administer it. This is very nice - and it wouldn't be possible with Arch.

LoBo3268715 · 2012-04-01 01:58:38

Welcome to Linux! To answer your question on why Arch is "better", I would have to say that the amount of system control that Arch provides is why I love it so much. I used Ubuntu or an Ubuntu based spin off during my first year with Linux and then I took the plunge into Arch and it's been amazing to say the least. I now have the control I have always wished for in a OS, but that has come at the price of spending alot of free time between googling, the Arch wiki, and here on the forum but I can say I have enjoyed every minute of that time.

FlyingHappy · 2012-04-01 02:42:41

Just to share my $.02. I came to arch just like you did. Saw a bunch of people talking about it at Ubuntu forums and decided to try it out and haven't looked back. I mess with Linux for fun, not work and have found that I work quicker with arch than any other OS. I have also not seen hardly any breakage. I Roberts rolling releases enjoyable and love the control I have over the system and enjoy the terminal work I do.

bohoomil · 2012-04-01 02:54:58

schrammbo wrote:

just trying to figure out what makes Arch so great

Today I'd say that what makes Arch so great is what you learn when using it. A distribution I'm currently using on a daily basis is not Arch, although Arch still sits on its very own partition and works as a model to learn on. Actually, it's a custom installation that emerged from my Arch user experience (because I realized I could go further, choose my own way, experiment, study, have fun doing things I love). That's the profit that won't fit into predictable categories, though it's something that's marked red on my private Linux timeline. I could have probably done the same job long before, with Debian or Red Hat on board, but the thing is that only learning Linux with Arch I started to understand how huge my ignorance (or better: my illusion of knowledge) was. All in all, you can list the things that make Arch the best, but I guess the user experience is way more complex and personal.

Other than that, the best distro would be the one that won't make you disgusted when thinking of doing your job; that won't ruin other aspects of your life; the one that won't make you more a(nti)social that you want to be; that won't make you behave like an idiot*) or otherwise lose control over your 'self', etc. Plenty of things Distrowatch doesn't mention at all. ;~)

*) Funny: the worst job in favour of Linux is done by its most eager advocates...

schrammbo · 2012-04-01 03:29:45

I love dealing with the OS to me it is the greatest thing about a PC. I think it is so cool that I can take a piece of hardware and run so many different systems on the same hardware. That is why I have a house with so many different systems. I have to support Windows as my career but I at least get plenty of experience with that at work and dealing with the rest of my families needs.

For me I have Mac's and Linux systems.

I am looking forward to really messing with my mind when I try to put arch on an old PPC system.

sitquietly · 2012-04-01 05:58:59

schrammbo wrote:

.....I am a windows admin for my career and a mac user since college way back in the early 90's...
.....Most recently have decided on Kubuntu as my flavor of choice. Yet as I read the forums and newsgroups I read many people converting to Arch so I said to myself let me check it out. .....what makes this distro so great?.....

Well, I'll answer too because I have similar background as a system professional, and long time Mac user, who found the linux ecosystem to be chaotic with thousands of software packages coming from hundreds of "upstream" sources and at least several of those packages experiencing a "new release" EVERY DAY. I got a linux certification, worked on several networks using a half dozen different linux distributions, and I still find this "system" to be chaotic and amazingly useful:

From my perspective Archlinux is great for one of two reasons:

1. For non-professional, or maybe "immature" users, it is good for bragging rights. "I installed and set up a difficult system. I configured it all myself!" I can't see that one actually learns more about linux by setting up Archlinux than by working through a LFS (Linux From Scratch) install, but the Archlinux path is easier and obviously attractive to many folks who want SOME path to learning. But you can learn as much or more by installing any Debian system and buying one of the several sys admin books like "The Debian System: Concepts and Techniques" or "Unix and Linux System Administration Handbook". Archlinux is not used in corporations or schools. There is much more commercial use of Gentoo than Arch. I think the distros to learn as a pro are Redhat/Fedora, Debian/Ubuntu, and Novell/OpenSUSE.

2. Archlinux is a flexible base for building your own custom system. I think it would be a good base for building a distro. That's what I use it for and I'm not sure I made the right choice But I have fun

The big strength of any distro is the knowledge that it encapsulates: it takes a lot of detailed knowledge of many packages and how they fit together and how to integrate a system comprised of ill-fitting and oft-changing parts. No group does it perfectly. The Archlinux team is darn good. But there are about 30 men (no women as far as I know) developing Archlinux and about 900 men and women developing Debian. Debian Sid also "rolls" so Arch is not actually unique but it is generally more up to date with "upstream" than Debian is.

I hope this modest viewpoint helps; it is hard won knowledge.

BTW, I too have chosen Kubuntu 12.04 as my other distro, I boot Archlinux off the "sda" drive and Kubuntu off the "sdb" drive, and spend as much time running Ubuntu/Kubuntu now as I do running Archlinux. Both systems use my same home directory and it's easy to lose track of which distro I booted.

andesho91 · 2012-04-01 07:29:00

I wouldn't say that the package manager in Ubuntu or Debian is entirely perfect in itself, I mean, if you're looking for stuff to just work, then Synaptic or aptitude do pretty well by themselves. When things break, that's when pacman comes into its own since one can quite easily remove the offending packages quite easily and then rebuild, whereas within Ubuntu, you end up with so many dependency problems if you try and strip it down to the kernel and then rebuild it.

I recently had a case where I completely knackered Ubuntu by removing some of the LightDM settings, and couldn't fix it by a purge and then reinstall command unlike in arch where that is possible.

There are also a nice set of tools for power management in Archlinux which don't depend on HAL, a bloody nightmare to work with in Arch or Ubuntu I think. My setup in my signature,

bobwya · 2012-04-01 12:09:11

schrammbo wrote:

So my question is what makes Arch a better choice than say Kubuntu or Debian or many of the other big name distros out there?

First of all I would recommend not to put all your eggs in one basket. I run a few distros in parallel. If I break one I've always got a fall back!! A good alternative to a shared /home partition (=FAIL) is to use small /home partitions and a shared partition with symbolically linked folders for your data files. Just my own preference...

Personally I've found Kubuntu to be pretty rubbish - if you want a good KDE-based Ubuntu derivative then the recent Linux-Mint 12 KDE is very nice - has less broken packages than Kubuntu (for example I couldn't even install the Kdenlive package from the Kubuntu 11.10 standard repositories =FAIL) and is much better setup (GTK theming for root user, etc., etc.).

To truly experience ARCH you have to start with a minimal install disk/USB drive. Sit at the command line and install everything you need to get a working desktop. Anything less than this is a cope out. It's the difference between sitting for hours compiling Gentoo packages or simply installing Sabayon Linux (and not learning anything)...

The ARCH Wiki pages sits there and calmly guides you through most problems... The Ubuntu wiki pages are just one big train-wreck.

Just my $0.02...

Bob

Arch Linux

#1 2012-03-31 13:38:40

Newbie Questions

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