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#1 2016-06-06 19:12:06

ku_respawned
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Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 45

How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

I currently use Thunderbird to handle my e-mail (with POP3 (all mail kept on server) for some accounts and IMAP for others). I want to switch to Evolution+OfflineIMAP used for all accounts.

I have different Thunderbird versions on different PCs with copies of the profile that I use on my main PC. I want to merge all profiles' Sent folders for each POP3 account, eliminating the duplicates, with the IMAP Sent folders containing the e-mails I wrote from the respective accounts' web interfaces. Two of the main reasons for choosing Evolution as a candidate for my future e-mail client were it's ability to import Thundebird's mbox folders and to detect duplicates.

However, I've seen a lot of bug reports for Evolution (including it not being able to import a Thunderbird's mbox) and also some reports of OfflineIMAP deleting all mail directly after downloading it, both on the local drive and the server. Because of this, I want to backup all my e-mail accounts first and to be able to return to Thunderbird, if everything fails.

So, what is the best way to backup IMAP accounts with all folders (later being able to import them as local folders in both Evolution and Thunderbird)?

I have 4 mail.ru accounts (Russian mailbox names), yahoo.de and arcor.de accounts (German mailbox names), gmail and outlook.com acconts (not sure of mailbox names' language at the moment, as I've only (rarely) used them with the default clients on Android and Windows 8.1). I couldn't find out the IMAP specifications and the encoding used for all the servers (I've heard that some servers use UTF-7 and other use UTF-8, and that there could be problems with some some IMAP backup solutions using the wrong encoding).

My main account (currently handled by Thunderbird with POP3) has a huge inbox, exceeding mbox' format limits. And after Thunderbird refused to continue downloading new messages to it in the past (before I realized that i could just create a new folder and move old e-mails there), I deleted a lot of old mail, without knowing whether i could use some of it the future.
I'd like to get a full copy this inbox and i've read on Thunderbird's Wiki that the Maildir format used by Mozilla isn't the "real" Maildir, it's incompatible to Maildir used by Evolution and OfflineIMAP. Is there an IMAP backup solution that would auto-create a new mbox, when the first one becomes full, and download the rest of the e-mails there?

I'm also still open to suggestions about alternative solutions (alternative to Evolution+OfflineIMAP). I want to keep all of my e-mail accounts separate. I want them to always be in sync on all the devices I use, so IMAP is the only way. Ideally, I want every e-mail backed up directly after it is received or sent, on every device (still need to find a solution for Windows) without keeping full separate backups (which I will still, of course, create from time to time) on every device and without running a server on one of them all the time. I want a GUI e-mail client and I need the solution to be stable and secure. I've already had malware, both on Windows (with latest updates and an antivirus solution installed) and on my previous Arch installation.

I have a pretty old PC (Core2duo E8400/8GB RAM), with CrashPlan and Firefox always using up all the resources, so I'd like a lightweight solution. I also currently have a VDSL modem with an integrated router that refuses to forward ports, so I can't use a server for other devices.

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#2 2016-06-06 22:29:33

ngoonee
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

There's imapsync, but I used that for a while and came back to offlineimap which is just faster. Test it out on a throwaway email account first (identical in everything except the actual content) if you're worried, that's what I did years ago when I first set it up.

Once you have it in a maildir you can back it up as usual, rsync, rsnapshot, etc.

You could ask evolution to access the maildir directly (I used to do this), but the 'better' alternative in my opinion is to use dovecot or similar to reflect the maildir. I initially set this up so I could use evolution or any other mail client locally without having to worry about inter-operability on the maildir (was trying out mutt at the time).


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#3 2016-06-06 23:30:32

Trilby
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

I tossed offlineimap long ago and went with isync/mbsync.  It is orders of magnitude faster and rock solid.  There are few bits of software I'd want to say more good things about than mbsync.  But it simplicity also just doesn't give me much to say: it works, it stays out of the way.

I know nothing of mbox files, except that the very thought of them makes me cringe.  I'm not sure how you find evolutions greatest merit to be the ability to merge mbox files when in the very next sentence you state the concern that it is reported to fail to import mbox files.

Use maildir - then merging is ridiculously easy: cp or mv a bunch of files, then just scan for duplicate content and (optionally) remove those dups.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#4 2016-06-07 02:35:36

ku_respawned
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Posts: 45

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Trilby wrote:

I tossed offlineimap long ago and went with isync/mbsync.  It is orders of magnitude faster and rock solid.  There are few bits of software I'd want to say more good things about than mbsync.  But it also just doesn't give me much to say: it works, it stays out of the way.

I know nothing of mbox files, except that the very thought of them makes me cringe.  I'm not sure how you find evolutions greatest merit to be the ability to merge mbox files when in the very next sentence you state the concern that it is reported to fail to import mbox files.

Use maildir - then merging is ridiculously easy: cp or mv a bunch of files, then just scan for duplicate content and (optionally) remove those dups.

Thanks for the advice, going to search for more info on isync/mbsync. There's not much info in ArchWiki, but is there any reason for setting it to start every two hours? I normally set my accounts in Thunderbird to check for new mail every minute, Is it only meant to backup/delete what needs to be backed up/deleted and new mail appears instantly in the e-mail client? Could I set it to sync more frequently or does it take a lot of time/resources on huge mailboxes?

I'm also beginning to think that I don't get the difference in how mbsync and OfflineIMAP work (or, better said, how each of them works, at all (I've spent the last week and half checking and reinstalling all my OSs on 3 devices, reconfiguring everything again, reading countless pieces of documentation and hardly sleeping at all - information overload). In all the documentation I have read, it says that OfflineIMAP only works with a limited subset of e-mail clients, notably mutt and Evolution (which, according to the official OfflineIMAP FAQ (or some other piece of documentation) is the only GUI working with it at the moment (KMail doesn't anymore)). When I searched for "mbsync supported clients", I found nothing. Can I use any client supporting IMAP and would only need mutt/Evolution if I wanted to make sure that my Maildir backup still is OK (and if I got it right, is the same behaviour not possible with OfflineIMAP)?

---

Evolution's mbox issue - I didn't tell it right. I found one report (maybe there are more, I didn't visit all the links) on ubuntuforums from 2014 from a a guy who managed to import most of his Thunderbird's mbox folders into Evolution, but with others, it failed. There were no suggested solutions. But even if it happens to me as well, I could probably just add the account in question to Thunderbird as IMAP, import the Sent boxes from all the profiles I have as local folders, select all mesages in them, right-click and move them to the IMAP Sent folder. I didn't find duplucates' search in Thunderbird, but there probably is a plugin for that. I also just found out that I also can copy the messages instead of moving them, didn't notice that option before (maybe it was recently introduced, but I'm known to be "blind" sometimes).

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#5 2016-06-07 11:43:02

Trilby
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

I don't know how you can say there's not much information on mbsync on the wiki, there is a very thorough and detailed page.  What more do you want to know?

2 hours?  No that's crazy.  I do see that there is a service file in the wiki showing an example of every 2 hours, that's just an example showing how to use systemd timers.  There are other wiki pages on systemd timers if you want more detail.  I have mine set for every 5 minutes.  It takes a couple of seconds to sync during which there isn't even a notable difference in a resource monitor like htop, and I have 10s of thousands of emails: it just synchronizes changes (the very first sync after setting it up might take a little bit longer). You sould set it to be far more frequent if you wanted.

OfflineIMAP and mbsync work differently under the hood, but they do the same job.  They syncronize a remote imap server and a local maildir.  That's it.  I don't know what kind of nonsense you are reading about supported email clients: these are completely separate.  Mbsync doesn't have supported email clients for the same reason that the linux kernel doesn't have supported email clients: run whatever MUA you want, mbsync just syncs imap <-> maildir.

One major difference between offlineimap and mbsync, and one major reason the latter is more stable, is that offlineimap runs as a daemon in the background constatly doing .... something, something silly and useless.  Every few minutes (configurable interval) it will sync to the imap server.  If anything goes wrong and the whole daemon crashes, you might often not know and mail will just stop being synced.  Mbsync just syncs mail and quits.  It is generally launched from a systemd timer, but you could use a bash while loop for all mbsync cares: again it just syncs mail - thats it.  So if something goes wrong during one sync, then you miss that sync - but the next one gets a fresh start.

As for GUIs ... there are none.  Again, these tools just sync imap to maildir.  There is nothing graphical to see.  Depending on how you run it, there can be a text progress indicator.  Offlineimap included a just-for-fun-and-silliness "blinkinlights" ncurses interface.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#6 2016-06-07 17:18:24

ku_respawned
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Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 45

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Trilby wrote:

I don't know how you can say there's not much information on mbsync on the wiki, there is a very thorough and detailed page.  What more do you want to know?

2 hours?  No that's crazy.  I do see that there is a service file in the wiki showing an example of every 2 hours, that's just an example showing how to use systemd timers.  There are other wiki pages on systemd timers if you want more detail.  I have mine set for every 5 minutes.  It takes a couple of seconds to sync during which there isn't even a notable difference in a resource monitor like htop, and I have 10s of thousands of emails: it just synchronizes changes (the very first sync after setting it up might take a little bit longer). You sould set it to be far more frequent if you wanted.

OfflineIMAP and mbsync work differently under the hood, but they do the same job.  They syncronize a remote imap server and a local maildir.  That's it.  I don't know what kind of nonsense you are reading about supported email clients: these are completely separate.  Mbsync doesn't have supported email clients for the same reason that the linux kernel doesn't have supported email clients: run whatever MUA you want, mbsync just syncs imap <-> maildir.

One major difference between offlineimap and mbsync, and one major reason the latter is more stable, is that offlineimap runs as a daemon in the background constatly doing .... something, something silly and useless.  Ever few minutes (configurable interval) it will sync to the imap server.  If anything goes wrong and the whole daemon crashes, you might often not know and mail will just stop being synced.  Mbsync just syncs mail and quits.  It is generally launched from a systemd timer, but you could use a bash while loop for all mbsync cares: again it just syncs mail - thats it.  So if something goes wrong during one sync, then you miss that sync - but the next one gets a fresh start.

As for GUIs ... there are none.  Again, these tools just sync imap to maildir.  There is nothing graphical to see.  Depending on how you run it, there can be a text progress indicator.  Offlineimap included a just-for-fun-and-silliness "blinkinlights" ncurses interface.

Thank you! So, it's exactly as I asked in the last message - there's no real reason to import the Maildir offline copy into any e-mail client (what i meant with a GUI e-mail client is, what every layman person would mean with an e-mail client - a program with a graphical interface to write some new or read incoming mail, I don't need the "backup/sync tool" to be GUI), I could use any e-mail client supporting IMAP accounts and work with it as I please (all the servers I use have a Trash folder in their accounts and the default setting to move deleted mail to it, so nothing should get lost, as long as I sync it as well.
The only reason to import the local Maildir copy that I could imagine (unless some server actually deletes all my mail or goes offline forever at some point and I'll need instant access to some mail, only stored locally) is to check, after I've set everything up, that I've set up everything right and all the accounts (and all their folders) are, indeed, backed up. Then I don't even mind using mutt for it, if it is the most reliable solution for Maildir (I only didn't want to use it for everyday needs, as I'm more used to GUI).

What I meant about not finding enough info on ArchWiki (or anywhere on the internet, for that matter) was that there were no additional info, aside of how to set it up. I wanted to find out about the differences between OfflineIMAP and mbsync and all I could find were 2 or 3 posts from people who used both and told that mbsync is, as you said, faster and more reliable. And  pretty much all the FAQs and other pieces of introductory information on OfflineIMAP I've read did, indeed, mention the only supported clients to be mutt and Evolution (earlier FAQs included other clients). Maybe it makes sense in a way - if you say that it's that it sometime stops syncing your mail without you noticing, I'd definitely like to find that out one way or the other wink

So, do you suggest that there should be no need to back up the accounts before trying mbsync out?

If so, could you suggest any reliable GUI client that supports using IMAP accounts without making a full offline copy (kind of asking for an opposite of what I've asked it the very first post)? I will research the matter on my own, as well.

It seems that there's no way to set up mbsync under Windows, do you know of any alternatives for Windows? Though, the most secure soĺution (and the one I'll probably choose if I ever need to leave for a long time with my Windows laptop only, again) would probably be to set up a virtual machine running Arch without X , with only mbsync and mutt installed.

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#7 2016-06-07 21:02:52

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

'Import a Maildir offline copy' - why are you even mentioning that?

I think all the GUI email clients support using IMAP accounts. However they will be some (not a complete) offline cache, because reading emails would be unbearably slow otherwise.

It's hard to tell based on what you're writing, but it does seem as if you may be confused either as to what IMAP is and does or what an email client is and does. Trilby's explanation (specifically of what the sync clients do) should help.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
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#8 2016-06-07 21:13:35

Trilby
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

I'm also no longer really sure what the goals are here.  I see no point in using a mail client to access your imap server while also using a tool like offlineIMAP or mbsync to sync a local maildir to that same imap server.  This would double (or more) the bandwidth required and would make reading email slower (perhaps not noticably, but it definitely would be).

If you use a sync tool to get a local maildir of your imap mail, just set your mail client to use that maildir, not the imap server.

A mail client being supported or not supported by offlineimap or mbsync is just a nonsensical question.  There may be a reasonable quesiton on whether a given mail client can read use a maildir.  I'm under the (perhaps naive) impression that nearly all mail clients could use a local maildir except for very rare exceptions - I think Thunderbird *might* be one example of a mail client that cannot read a mail dir.  But don't quote me on this, I've not followed the development of gui mail clients in a long time.

EDIT: Correction, according to wikipedia Thunderbird can use Maildir.

EDIT 2: RE

ku_respawned wrote:

So, do you suggest that there should be no need to back up the accounts before trying mbsync out?

I would say there is no special need here.  But you should have backups of everything.  Always.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#9 2016-06-08 01:09:06

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Trilby wrote:

A mail client being supported or not supported by offlineimap or mbsync is just a nonsensical question.  There may be a reasonable quesiton on whether a given mail client can read use a maildir.  I'm under the (perhaps naive) impression that nearly all mail clients could use a local maildir except for very rare exceptions - I think Thunderbird *might* be one example of a mail client that cannot read a mail dir.  But don't quote me on this, I've not followed the development of gui mail clients in a long time.

I believe what he MAY be referring to is the maildir format used by offlineimap (by default) vis-a-vis the format evolution (for example) expects. If I recall correctly the maildir format allows a fair latitude between periods/slashes/sub-dirs which aren't all properly supported by email clients, but ARE supported by offlineimap.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
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#10 2016-06-08 02:03:32

Trilby
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

That could be - but that'd be news to me.  I thought a maildir was a maildir was a maildir.  In my experience all tools that read/write/etc a maildir have all worked interchangeably without issue.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#11 2016-06-08 07:23:58

ngoonee
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Its been years since I first set it up so my memory's fuzzy. You may be right, but I do remember configurable path separators at least, and having to specify one particular kind to work with evolution (and later on change it again to work with dovecot).


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
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#12 2016-06-09 05:50:21

ku_respawned
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Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 45

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Trilby wrote:

I'm also no longer really sure what the goals are here.  I see no point in using a mail client to access your imap server while also using a tool like offlineIMAP or mbsync to sync a local maildir to that same imap server.  This would double (or more) the bandwidth required and would make reading email slower (perhaps not noticably, but it definitely would be).

OK, first and foremost, after reading about compatible/incompatible from the beginning (I remember Thunderbird being mentioned)/no longer compatible (KMail) clients in those OfflineIMAP FAQs, I got scared that a "wrong" client could somehow damage the local maildir copy (on the first access or in the future, maybe after an update), either making mbsync unable to continue syncing it with the server or, worse, making it corrupt all (or, at least, new outgoing) mail on the server as well. Maybe it's all BS and you're right. Maybe it doesn't count with mbsync. (BTW, it says in the mbsync man that mail is not deleted locally by default, after it's been deleted from the server. What if you delete it with a local Maildir client (MUA)?)

Second, I recently had to reinstall Arch (actually all my  OSs on 3 devices, not done with all yet) after a malware infection, it seems like no accounts I use were compromised (but it seems like on one of those 3 devices I've got a cryptolocker (I had writeabale access to some folders in samba used by 2 Windows devices) . Linux malware file was last modidied in 04/2012, so I doubt it's it). This made made me very paranoid. I want to invest a little more in security. Since I will still use stuff like AUR/downloading packages that are not in AUR, Flash, maybe even JAVA, etc and do other dangerous stuff, I'd like not to use online stuff that's critical to me from those devices anymore (or try to limit the risks at least, like not storing plain-text passwords (pidgin) or gpg-protected passwords without a passkey (like suggested in the isync Wiki) and storing all mail in my Homedir in plain-text). I'd like to create a virtual machine with an enctrypted disk, Linux, hardened (will definitely need to read A LOT more), with as little packages on it installed as possible. I'll access the e-mail accounts from the servers not supporting two-factor authentication only from there, will only do anything financial from there, etc. And store a local copy of all my mail from all accounts and maybe use a local Maildir client for it. When I'll need to leave with only my Windows notebook for a long time, I'll copy the VM image to it. I don't know, maybe I'm getting too paranoid, but better safe than sorry. Right now it's only an idea, though.

For e--mail accounts supporting two-factor authentication (needed for password change) and that I use for receiving newsletters/non-critical communication, I would like to use some IMAP client, maybe Thunderbird, probably without the use of offline folders.

If you use a sync tool to get a local maildir of your imap mail, just set your mail client to use that maildir, not the imap server.

A mail client being supported or not supported by offlineimap or mbsync is just a nonsensical question.  There may be a reasonable quesiton on whether a given mail client can read use a maildir.  I'm under the (perhaps naive) impression that nearly all mail clients could use a local maildir except for very rare exceptions - I think Thunderbird *might* be one example of a mail client that cannot read a mail dir.  But don't quote me on this, I've not followed the development of gui mail clients in a long time.

EDIT: Correction, according to wikipedia Thunderbird can use Maildir.

Mozilla Wiki
Mozilla says it's not full Maildir. And if I understood it right, existing Maildir can't be imported.

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#13 2016-06-09 08:02:11

ngoonee
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From: Between Thailand and Singapore
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

If you want to be that paranoid, IMAP sort of defeats the purpose of two-factor authentication, since you'd need to create a password for the IMAP client (which bypasses two-factor authentication). Not sure if offlineimap/mbsync have added support for that, but I doubt so.

Also, your long paragraph doesn't answer the specific question, what are you trying to do with IMAP? A local backup? A local sync? A local copy, which syncs back once in a while? How would your email clients access your email, via IMAP to the online provider? Through your maildir? How would email be sent, using the provider's SMTP?


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
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#14 2016-06-09 08:38:08

Docbroke
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From: India
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

my 2 cents regarding 2 factor authentication, I may be wrong
After receiving mail from gmail that someone tried to access my mail account, I opted for two factor authentication, along with mutt & pop3 setup. As I do not keep any mails on server (all on my ssd), I feel much safer about my mail. Regarding app specific password, it is quite strong as compared to usual human used passwords, and it gives limited access to anyone who is able to break it, even in that case I have no mails on server, they are downloaded to my ssd and deleted from server almost as soon as they come.

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#15 2016-06-09 12:54:45

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
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Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

ku_respawned wrote:

(BTW, it says in the mbsync man that mail is not deleted locally by default, after it's been deleted from the server. What if you delete it with a local Maildir client (MUA)?

This is all configurable.  You can chose how such situations are dealt with.  This is all in the documentation.  Read it.  Don't read it and panic at one mention of the word "delete" - this is giving you options.  Some people want mail to be deleted from the server.

You need to get over your paranoia and take responsibility for your system.  No one else is going to set up your mail client for you.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#16 2016-06-09 20:55:38

ku_respawned
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Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 45

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

ngoonee wrote:

If you want to be that paranoid, IMAP sort of defeats the purpose of two-factor authentication, since you'd need to create a password for the IMAP client (which bypasses two-factor authentication). Not sure if offlineimap/mbsync have added support for that, but I doubt so.

Also, your long paragraph doesn't answer the specific question, what are you trying to do with IMAP? A local backup? A local sync? A local copy, which syncs back once in a while? How would your email clients access your email, via IMAP to the online provider? Through your maildir? How would email be sent, using the provider's SMTP?

My main reason for wanting to switch to IMAP is that I have multiple copies of Thunderbird with different copies of Sent folders (and also some sent mail on the servers, written from the web interface) (and I've already searched for some mail I knew I have written in the past, but didn't know, from which device), different filters and a folder with the most important mail, I know I will need again soon, that only exists on my main Linux PC, as I move it there manually. I also have received some restored passwords in plaintext on my main e-mail account in the past, including one from a store that has my bank account credentials saved.  I've deleted them from the local POP3 copy, but forgot to delete some of them from the server. I've registered CrashPlan (which has all my data backed up, protected by a separate very long archive password) to another e-mail account and discovered later that it sends you the link to auto-create a new "normal" password showed in plaintext, which lets you access the stored full credit card information and, I belive, but am not sure, change the archive password and destroy all stored data, using the official CrashPlan client. Also, my main account is a mess of over 50,000 pices of unsorted mail (mostly SPAM and different newsletters), I deleted a lot of it locally, but it still stays on the server and when I need to access it from a browser, it's impossible to find importand mail from the last week. I want to sort it all, once and for all, and to move all the still needed highly confidetial stored mail/unsecure account registrations to an account I will only access from the secure environment.

I will try to find a secure cross-platform password manager supporting two-factor authentication and auto-typing (not copying to the clipboard) the passwords, also into desktop apps, I'm not sure that I'll find one, right now there are 2 candidates - keepass and lastpass, it seems like lastpass currently supports everything I need for Windows and Android, but not for Linux (at least, Arch). I'm especially not sure if it's even possible to create a password manager supporting stuff like decrypting a disk image in a VM before it's booted, but it's not the topic here. I will create a new post asking for possible solutions later.

I did specify that (in case of the IMAP accounts I will access from a non-secure enviroment) it would suffice for me, for them to need the two-factor authentication to change the password, as I want to get rid of anything really confidential first. Though, this would take me a lot of time. As for mbsync, the way I understood it, it is suggested in the ArchWiki to encrypt the password without a passkey being asked, which any malware with your user rights could decrypt. This does make sense if you aren't paranoid and you run it automatically like every 5 minutes with systemd, but I'm thinking that it possible, at least if you run it manually (yes, I mostly want a backup and I usually know when I'm going to receive a new confidential mail, to read with a local client, as it's mostly stuff I request), to make the keyfiles password protected and let a (CLI?) password manager provide it to it.

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#17 2016-06-09 21:17:09

ku_respawned
Member
Registered: 2016-06-05
Posts: 45

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Trilby wrote:
ku_respawned wrote:

(BTW, it says in the mbsync man that mail is not deleted locally by default, after it's been deleted from the server. What if you delete it with a local Maildir client (MUA)?

This is all configurable.  You can chose how such situations are dealt with.  This is all in the documentation.  Read it.  Don't read it and panic at one mention of the word "delete" - this is giving you options.  Some people want mail to be deleted from the server.

You need to get over your paranoia and take responsibility for your system.  No one else is going to set up your mail client for you.

I haven't read the complete man yet, only parts of it. Still setting the stuff most needed now + stuff keeps happening, today my new Arch copy on the SSD "broke" (while being run, it seems like the FS wasn't damaged) and trying to figure out what happened (looked like the SSD was dying), I finally found out that my PSU is dying and had to run to a store to buy a new one. Sometimes I get enough of it and start reading the blogs I follow/watch TV shows,

Before I set mbsync up and run it for the first time, I'd still like to make a backup of the accounts (as you also suggested, though you didn't consider it necessary). Or, at least, one account that I don't get new mail on that often and that I'll try mbsync on first. Still need the right tool, though, if took the account with the least (and least importand) mail and tried some tool suggested by the Mozilla Wiki (so that I could re-import it into Thunderbird and, if I mess mbsync up in some way, later back to the IMAP server), I could begin pretty soon.

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#18 2016-06-10 03:50:01

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

If you're using gmail, how confident are you that a company whose business model relies on customer data and ads actually deletes the emails you ask them to?

Again, if you wish to be sufficiently paranoid, don't let them handle your email in the first place.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#19 2016-06-10 05:15:52

Docbroke
Member
From: India
Registered: 2015-06-13
Posts: 1,433

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

ngoonee wrote:

If you're using gmail, how confident are you that a company whose business model relies on customer data and ads actually deletes the emails you ask them to?

Again, if you wish to be sufficiently paranoid, don't let them handle your email in the first place.

I guess this was directed to me. Can you suggest good alternative to
gmail, other than creating my own server. I am no fan of gmail, but I
genuinly don't know where to go?

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#20 2016-06-10 10:31:14

Trilby
Inspector Parrot
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 29,447
Website

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Switching from gmail would be no benefit.  If you get a postcard in the mail that has confidential information on it, you can burn the postcard, but there is no way to convince your mail carrier to forget what they saw.  Worse yet, there are countless other eyes that have been on that card while it was in transit.  You have no idea which sets of eyes may have looked upon that confidential information or which ones might have photographic memory or which ones might have an interest in your information.

Anything in an email is no more secure than anything on a postcard.  This is true whether you use gmail, another mail servicer, or your own email server.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#21 2016-06-10 11:42:35

Docbroke
Member
From: India
Registered: 2015-06-13
Posts: 1,433

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

true, but if we count that, only way is end to end encryption, which is practically not possible in every mail.

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#22 2016-06-10 12:17:04

Trilby
Inspector Parrot
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 29,447
Website

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

I don't get the "but if we count that" clause - you have no choice but to count this.  You are right that end-to-end encryption is not practical.  So then why worry about who hosts your email?  A chain is only as strong as the weakest link.  You are worried about the strength of the second weskest link thinking you can just "not count" the weakest one?  This is a good way to buld a false sense of security.

Deleting an email from an imap server can help you stay below your storage limits on that server.  That's it.  Deleting an email from an imap server does nothing for information security.  One cannot "unsend" an email.  There was mention of whether an email would really be deleted from the server: and what is meant by delete?  Even if they "rm" the file, the data still exists until overwritten.  I doubt any mail server does any secure deletiion data-scrubbing for normal delete requests - and even if they did it would be irrelevant unless you opt to ignore the other problems.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#23 2016-06-10 22:55:44

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

A group of people I am in contact with who value privacy due to possible current and future danger to them based on their geographical location, politics, and beliefs have started accounts on protonmail. Real security only exists between two protonmail users though, and once an email is forwarded outside the protonmail system all bets are off. Its basically transparent end to end encryption.

Again, not practical except in exceptional circumstances.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#24 2016-06-11 03:55:32

Docbroke
Member
From: India
Registered: 2015-06-13
Posts: 1,433

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

checked protonmail, it appears better than gmail but imap/pop3 is not
supported and storage limit of free account is only 500mb, so it would
best to continue my gmail/pop3/mutt setup, & turn blind eye to problems
that cannot be solved practically.

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#25 2016-06-11 18:06:34

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: How do I backup IMAP? (compatible with Thunderbird and Evolution)

Docbroke wrote:

checked protonmail, it appears better than gmail but imap/pop3 is not
supported and storage limit of free account is only 500mb, so it would
best to continue my gmail/pop3/mutt setup, & turn blind eye to problems
that cannot be solved practically.

And there we see one of the problems with a strict approach to security.

The feature set which is attractive about protonmail (I have a promo 1GB account myself there, but never use it), namely the end-to-end encryption, would not make sense over IMAP/POP3. Like most Internet technologies, they weren't designed with privacy in mind.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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