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#1 2012-03-16 23:15:32

shushu
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Registered: 2012-01-24
Posts: 35

Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

I'm building a NAS box for my basement and the frame is going to be a Dell Dimension 2400.  I'm using 2x 2TB sata drives which will be configured in Raid-1 for redundancy purposes(losing a drive and everything on it sucks).

Anyhow, I want my two storage drives to be completely dedicated to my data so,  I've decided to investigate the possibility of installing and running Arch on a CF card connected via IDE.  I've seen mixed yays and nays online from my research, but, in the end, the Arch community has always had not only the best documentation but also one of the most knowledgeable communities I've seen. 

So, What do you think?

Oh, and I plan on running X with openbox for speed.  I'm just running a couple web daemons to download my shows.

Thanks!

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#2 2012-03-16 23:35:18

karol
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Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

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#3 2012-03-16 23:50:59

knopwob
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From: Hannover, Germany
Registered: 2010-01-30
Posts: 239
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Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

I'm using a compact flash card in one of my laptops (the hard drive broke and a replacement would be to expensive) for over 1.5 years now. The usability depends strongly on the cf-card. I've encountered cards with whom the laptop gets unusable slow, but with good cards, there's no difference to a normal hard drive.

Last edited by knopwob (2012-03-16 23:51:17)

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#4 2012-03-17 02:20:02

keenerd
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Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

I'm doing that right now, have for several years, and it works great.  Adding my two cents...

A big thing is to occasionally use iotop and monitor writes.  For example, Vim used to lag horribly for me because it would constantly update the temp file on disk.  Moving the temp files to tmpfs fixed that.  (set directory=/tmp/vim)

Ext4 seems to be the fastest filesystem for this sort of thing.  And fast is good, the only way to be faster on a slow flash drive is to write as little as possible.  Fast filesystem means less wear on the flash.

Try to never go above 75% drive capacity, it is hard on the flash.

Don't use swap.  If you begin to run out of ram, you'll feel a slowdown very similar to swapping as all the system libraries are pushed out of the file cache and read from the drive.  Since this is a read-only thing, it is not hard on the flash.  And provides plenty of warning before the OOM killer wakes up.

Last edited by keenerd (2012-03-17 02:20:26)

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#5 2012-03-17 06:56:25

lilsirecho
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Registered: 2003-10-24
Posts: 5,000

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

My experience is with adata flash devices and maxell flash devices.

Adata has some which are 266x and not too expensive.  Maxell has 16GB devices at 400x.

I presently have two maxell devices running as bootable arch systems using boot/root arrangement with no swap.  The hdparm for the 400x devices shows 80MB/s which is higher than 400x(60MB/s).

They run in sata2CF adapters and do best in Master sata connection sataII.

The arch linux system boots from grub prompt to xfce4 Desktop in ~8 seconds.

One of the two devices runs at 70MB/s instead of the higher 80.

I cloned the second device from the original (70MB;s device).

I have upgraded several times with no problems.

They both boot from MBR.

I have tried very hard to find a way to boot from partition but have had no luck.  I used to have a number of devices running in raid0 using partitioned booting.  That was before Linux kernels messed with mdadm and prevented the partitioned boot.

With two maxell devices in raid zero the hdparm read was 180MB/s.

It is important that the devices you select can run in true IDE made.  Many CF cards do not respond in my setup because they don't have IDE mode.  Especially Kingston which doesn't have any that run in true IDE mode.  Cheaper Patriots are not usable.

Wanted to try some 600x CF cards but couldn't find any that are true IDE mode...that is, affordable as well!

I am running in CF mode at the moment.

Bedtime!


Prediction...This year will be a very odd year!
Hard work does not kill people but why risk it: Charlie Mccarthy
A man is not complete until he is married..then..he is finished.
When ALL is lost, what can be found? Even bytes get lonely for a little bit!     X-ray confirms Iam spineless!

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#6 2012-03-17 11:52:39

shushu
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Registered: 2012-01-24
Posts: 35

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Thank you all for your input!  This is AWESOME!  Well, I'm basically looking to going the CF route because its cheaper than getting a third hard disk seeing as how I don't even think you can buy IDE hard disks any longer.  I'm not sure how cluttered the drive will get but I imagine it won't be much because I'm literally going to install firefox and 2 clients that run in daemon mode.  Its pretty much a set it and forget it.

I'm shopping through these cards on new egg with price in mind.  At first glance, I notice that all of the 16GB cards that operate at 600x don't make any mention of IDE mode.  I suppose IDE mode is the key to arguing with linux that this is an actual drive correct?

Also, wouldn't the BIOS need to agree that its a bootable drive as well?  I know I'm not there yet but just wondering.

I found http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … 6820313223 on newegg.  price is right but what about 133x?  Am I shooting myself in the foot?

Man do I hate navigating through uncharted(for me) waters.  Glad I've got you all.

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#7 2012-03-17 12:14:50

Awebb
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Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 6,275

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Make sure you don't update too often. I have Arch running on a USB dongle inside an HTPC and updating daily puts some stress on that thing. I also have some IPCop 1.4 and 2.0.3 on ALIX boards using CF cards running (Sandisk.. err.. Extreme I guess, 4GB) and the throughput isn't enough to feed the web interface at a reasonable speed. It could be the interface on the ALIX board, though.

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#8 2012-03-17 16:20:35

lilsirecho
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Registered: 2003-10-24
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Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Maxell 16GB 400x is best IMHO. 

133x is way too slow.  Adata 266x is tolerable.  From that speed on up is good but all must be true IDE mode devices.

My setup is with sataII adapters to the CF cards and may have an effect on the speed attainable.

Awebb has a note worth considering...upgrades might degrade performance.

In all cases, the larger the CF card capacity, the better it can perform due to the internal algoriithms provided which reduce write stress on cells spreading the data over all cells.

My experience with the present arrangement is not very long so there is longevity to consider.

I plan a 32GB setup at some time when I can get the right CF card at a good price.

Good luck on your project!


Prediction...This year will be a very odd year!
Hard work does not kill people but why risk it: Charlie Mccarthy
A man is not complete until he is married..then..he is finished.
When ALL is lost, what can be found? Even bytes get lonely for a little bit!     X-ray confirms Iam spineless!

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#9 2012-03-17 17:00:45

Awebb
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Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 6,275

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

I'd also be careful with loglevels. The biggest performance boost for the old IPCop was to keep the log files in the memory as reasonably long as possible and write it back to the card after that period.

But since OP talks about a NAS, a CF card will be more than enough, performance-wise. Does it have to be Linux? If you're not too shy to use BSD, I recommend trying FreeNAS. It has everything a home server needs and it is even capable of satisfying a mid-size corporate's file server's requirements. You wouldn't need openbox, it comes with a very sophisticated web interface.

If you plan to use single GUI driven programs, I recommend having a look at xpra, which allows you to show a single X window from a remote machine, without displaying a complete desktop. I use this on my home server when I have no real clue what I want to do with files and open a few thunar windows remotely. Jdownloader and xpra work fine together too.

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#10 2012-03-17 17:05:05

cfr
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Registered: 2011-11-27
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Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Are you sure you can't buy IDE HDDs now? I got one a little more than a year ago and there seemed to be a good number still available then so it seems quite surprising. They were more expensive than SATA, however, though not by an enormous amount.


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#11 2012-03-17 17:24:12

lilsirecho
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Registered: 2003-10-24
Posts: 5,000

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Perhaps you misunderstand my comment regarding the true ide mode.

I refer to Compact Flash devices requiring true IDE mode in order to boot.

Another comment regarding the speed of my CF cards.

I just finished installing another 16GB maxell 400x device with dd from the existing CF card.

The hdparm speed indicated initially was 76MB/s.  After repeating hdparm several times the reading came steady at 86MB/s.

This is with linux 3.1.9-1 kernel.

Certainly the CF cards have a lifetime which I will search out if I use these as main arch system devices!


Prediction...This year will be a very odd year!
Hard work does not kill people but why risk it: Charlie Mccarthy
A man is not complete until he is married..then..he is finished.
When ALL is lost, what can be found? Even bytes get lonely for a little bit!     X-ray confirms Iam spineless!

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#12 2012-03-23 13:37:10

shushu
Member
Registered: 2012-01-24
Posts: 35

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Sorry I've been away from this post for a bit.  actually, I'e been rather busy lately.  Thank you all for the input. I suppose I'll go with the maxell400x.  I have a side question regarding my soon to be build.  I'll be using a motherboard from a dimension 2400 which does not have raid support.  I have selected a PCI RAID controller from newegg which is my tentative solution. 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … 6815124023
IS this a solution?  I mean, I presume the latest kernel has much support for PCI based RAID solutions?

I'd like to use (2) 2TB sata drives.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … 6822148834
  The PCI controller has 2 sata ports and I was planning on raid1 (I believe that is the mirror image setup).  That way, if one drives takes a dump, I can just swap it out without missing a beat.  (please take a second to correct me as I ramble my concocted plans if I am in error)

Here's a question...  My budget is<ahem> not what I had originally planned for so, I was considering starting out with only one of these hard disks and adding the second one in a month or two.  Can a raid controller card such as this run just one hard disk non-raid?

thanks!  I'm going to make my newegg order soon but I'd like to make sure I've got all my ducks in a row to avoid returns and disappointment.

Last edited by shushu (2012-03-23 13:50:31)

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#13 2012-03-23 15:04:07

shushu
Member
Registered: 2012-01-24
Posts: 35

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

and one more question.  If I used a CF card but instead of an IDE adapter, I adapted to SATA, does that mean it still needs to be IDE mode?

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#14 2012-03-23 15:07:28

lilsirecho
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Registered: 2003-10-24
Posts: 5,000

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Yes that is required in order that it boot.


Prediction...This year will be a very odd year!
Hard work does not kill people but why risk it: Charlie Mccarthy
A man is not complete until he is married..then..he is finished.
When ALL is lost, what can be found? Even bytes get lonely for a little bit!     X-ray confirms Iam spineless!

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#15 2012-03-23 15:23:41

shushu
Member
Registered: 2012-01-24
Posts: 35

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

lilsirecho wrote:

Maxell 16GB 400x is best IMHO.


Would you mind linking this card?   I can't seem to find any Maxell 16GB 400x cards which mention IDE mode.

Thanks!

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#16 2012-03-23 15:34:01

shushu
Member
Registered: 2012-01-24
Posts: 35

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

EDIT* - eheheh, I just found an interesting article about installing sickbeard and sabnzbd on freenas. 


Awebb wrote:

Does it have to be Linux? If you're not too shy to use BSD, I recommend trying FreeNAS. It has everything a home server needs and it is even capable of satisfying a mid-size corporate's file server's requirements. You wouldn't need openbox, it comes with a very sophisticated web interface.


Its going to need to be able to run
1) Sickbeard
2) Sabnzbd

I did briefly examine freeNAS on their website.  seems nice and although I know nothing about freeBSD, after moving through various linux distros and then finally successfully installing and using Arch, I'm sure I could figure it out.  Actually, originally I planned this project in a way that would make this machine a standalone NAS box using freeNAS.  It wasn't until a couple weeks ago I decided that if I did that, it would mean that I would still need some machine to stay on 24/7 which would run Sickbeard and Sabnzbd to supply video content to the NAS box.  This defeats a portion of my purpose in that I currently have everything running and stored on what is more of a gaming machine with a large PSU and I'd like to save the power and not have that machine run all the time. 

So, the idea was born to just build a box in which its primary function is to store media however it does have an OS for the purpose of running these two web servers so that it can be a lone machine.

Last edited by shushu (2012-03-23 16:09:27)

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#17 2012-03-23 15:49:56

lilsirecho
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Registered: 2003-10-24
Posts: 5,000

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

shushu:

The nomenclature on the maxell 16GB CF devices shows 400x UDMA.

This is the equivalent to the term , true IDE, which is used by many in the field.

These CF cards run at higher read speeds than their rating, typically 80MB/s in hdparm.

A side note,  I have not found a CF card which refers to true IDE mode that runs at 600x rated speed.

I realize that this is not a complete answer to the confusion in the marketplace but it is the result of my exoerience with CF cards for the past two or three years.

Kingston replied to my e-mail concerning true ide mode in their products and they reported they had no devices providing that mode.  Kingston devices do not boot in my machine .


Prediction...This year will be a very odd year!
Hard work does not kill people but why risk it: Charlie Mccarthy
A man is not complete until he is married..then..he is finished.
When ALL is lost, what can be found? Even bytes get lonely for a little bit!     X-ray confirms Iam spineless!

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#18 2012-03-23 15:51:42

shushu
Member
Registered: 2012-01-24
Posts: 35

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

lilsirecho wrote:

shushu:

The nomenclature on the maxell 16GB CF devices shows 400x UDMA.


aHA!  ok, that makes complete and total sense.  I saw many cards which listed UDMA modes 0-5 but had no idea that it was the same thing.  Thanks!

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#19 2012-03-23 16:07:10

lilsirecho
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Registered: 2003-10-24
Posts: 5,000

Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

Not being the designer of the CF cards I am assuming that it is equivalent based on my experience with the UDMA modes.

My system posting this  is CF based with the maxell 16GB CF 400xUDMA and boots in eight seconds to xfce4 Desktop.  I use sataII to CF adapters and have no HDD attached to my "green" mobo.  Still the power in use even with LED display is 116 watts.


Prediction...This year will be a very odd year!
Hard work does not kill people but why risk it: Charlie Mccarthy
A man is not complete until he is married..then..he is finished.
When ALL is lost, what can be found? Even bytes get lonely for a little bit!     X-ray confirms Iam spineless!

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#20 2012-03-23 22:05:12

.:B:.
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Registered: 2006-11-26
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Re: Reasonable to run Arch from a CF drive?

I do not intend to hijack this thread - nonetheless, I just migrated my HTPC installation to an SDHC card. I have /var and /home on tmpfs (4 GB RAM), content is rsynced back at shutdown (so only differences are written). Isn't that something that you'd want on flash storage? Root is mounted read-only as well.


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