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#26 2012-07-23 21:08:48

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,427

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Let's try the other way round: how much of a problem for you is it to get an at least 512 MB storage medium and download that 400 MB iso?

Last edited by karol (2012-07-23 21:09:06)

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#27 2012-07-23 21:12:08

ypoluektovich
Member
Registered: 2011-11-10
Posts: 13

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

No problem at all, really. As there won't be an alternative, I'll just take my 1GB flash drive, move everything from it elsewhere and use it instead.
It's just one small inconvenience for me. Someone else might not be so lucky, it will be a bigger inconvenience for them.
Also, in my experience, such small inconveniences tend to accumulate and become Ubuntu.

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#28 2012-07-23 21:19:28

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,427

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

ypoluektovich wrote:

Also, in my experience, such small inconveniences tend to accumulate and become Ubuntu.

Not sure which aspect of Ubuntu did you have in mind. Arch is a community-based rolling release distro and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I'm not going to argue how the devs should use the infrastructure as they themselves should know it best.
pacman got package signing and it means that you have to install a couple more packages as dependencies. It was an often-asked-for feature and similarly you don't have much of an alternative to it.

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#29 2012-07-23 21:27:23

Inxsible
Forum Fellow
From: Chicago
Registered: 2008-06-09
Posts: 9,071

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

ypoluektovich wrote:

That is (150MB * <number of users>) of unnecessary traffic

Look at it this way : 203 MB * <number of users who require both architectures> savings in traffic for all mirrors and torrents

I,for one, have a 32 bit and a 64 bit machine with Arch


Forum Rules

There's no such thing as a stupid question, but there sure are a lot of inquisitive idiots !

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#30 2012-07-23 21:45:09

ypoluektovich
Member
Registered: 2011-11-10
Posts: 13

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

karol wrote:
ypoluektovich wrote:

Also, in my experience, such small inconveniences tend to accumulate and become Ubuntu.

Not sure which aspect of Ubuntu did you have in mind. Arch is a community-based rolling release distro and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I'm not going to argue how the devs should use the infrastructure as they themselves should know it best.
pacman got package signing and it means that you have to install a couple more packages as dependencies. It was an often-asked-for feature and similarly you don't have much of an alternative to it.

What made me move from Ubuntu to Arch is that Arch offers much more customization "ouf of the box". (Yeah, I know it sounds contradictory. =) It's the nice balance point between increasingly Windows-like everything-included branded distros like Ubuntu and the "build everything more-or-less from scratch" approaches of Gentoo and friends. (Yeah, I know that being able to build everything from scratch is a good skill to have. I'm still sadly lacking it, though, and will need time to acquire it.)
I am by no means going to abandon Arch now. It's just I don't see any really good arguments for having only the dual-arch image. The testing one, BTW, is invalid, as you still have to test installation on both 32 and 64-bit boxes, only currently you do it for the same ISO, while with separate architecture-oriented images it would be two groups of tests, each for its own image.
Well, OK, if the devs want to still provide a dual-arch image, that will increase the necessary amount of testing by the factor of two. Yet I wonder if this dual-arch thing is really that good to have. Yet again, it's the devs' decision, not mine... I'll just have to endure, or maybe release and host my own flavor of Arch installation medium. :)

Yes, I would want to have package signing out of the box too, but as we can see from Pierre's listing (and one of the old x86_64 releases I have on my HD), they actually contribute very little to the increase in size. Like, maybe several MB tops. That's not what I'm speaking against here; I'm protesting (however weakly) the compulsory dual-arch image.

Inxsible wrote:
ypoluektovich wrote:

That is (150MB * <number of users>) of unnecessary traffic

Look at it this way : 203 MB * <number of users who require both architectures> savings in traffic for all mirrors and torrents

I,for one, have a 32 bit and a 64 bit machine with Arch

Yes, there is that too. It now becomes the question of, does the gains from dual-arch users compensate for the losses from everyone else? I do not know. Is there an official statistic for that?

Edit:
Bottom line, what I want to say is that I personally want a single-arch image. This is all.

Last edited by ypoluektovich (2012-07-23 21:46:49)

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#31 2012-07-24 00:14:40

gemma
Banned
Registered: 2012-07-11
Posts: 98

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Arch for me is the only choice left after going through the whole of distrowatch.
1) i want the latest working compiz from ubunt ( AUR )
2) i want to customise/rebuild the distro for a nice i7 (ABS and makepkg.conf )
3) i want gcc >=4.7 to make recompiling worthwhile ( core )
4) i want the latest gnome3 and xfce ( in extra/community )
5) i want the latest CUDA that works ( in extra now )
6) i want total control of my startups and initscripts ( rc.conf )


so you see am here with arch smile losing AIF is trivial for me, but i do worry what it will do to the arch user base,thats why i'll make a stab at doing one, cant see the problem of giving a offline option, just point pacman to a local core repo and use exactly the same code.

BTW, DUDE get a bigger stick, jesus either your really poor or your stuck in 2009 smile , fuck it ill send you a 4gig !

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#32 2012-07-24 07:48:21

Sandeep
Member
Registered: 2012-07-23
Posts: 2

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Hello all,

I downloaded latest version of arch linux archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall-dual.iso i would like to install on my sun virtual box, please guide me with the steps

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#33 2012-07-24 07:51:50

jasonwryan
Forum & Wiki Admin
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 18,558
Website

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Sandeep wrote:

Hello all,

I downloaded latest version of arch linux archlinux-2012.07.15-netinstall-dual.iso i would like to install on my sun virtual box, please guide me with the steps

Step 1. Read the wiki.

Step 2. Follow information gained in Step 1.

Step 3. Profit!


Arch + dwm   •   Mercurial repos  •   Github

Registered Linux User #482438

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#34 2012-07-24 08:22:42

Sandeep
Member
Registered: 2012-07-23
Posts: 2

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

I booted from the cd but i am unable to find the iso file where can i find it?? can u please suggest me the link to read

Last edited by Sandeep (2012-07-24 08:25:00)

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#35 2012-07-24 08:37:23

hoschi
Member
From: Ulm (Germany)
Registered: 2008-11-03
Posts: 356
Website

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

gemma wrote:

...thats why i'll make a stab at doing one, cant see the problem of giving a offline option, just point pacman to a local core repo and use exactly the same code.

That's it. Imagine your sitting in Egypt an want to install Arch on your box.
While goverment takes done the whole net! big_smile

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#36 2012-07-24 09:31:07

swordfish
Member
Registered: 2012-01-14
Posts: 160

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

hoschi wrote:
gemma wrote:

...thats why i'll make a stab at doing one, cant see the problem of giving a offline option, just point pacman to a local core repo and use exactly the same code.

That's it. Imagine your sitting in Egypt an want to install Arch on your box.
While goverment takes done the whole net! big_smile

Under the given circumstances this is really a luxury problem wink


Arch_x64 on Thinkpad Edge E520 (Intel Core i5, 4 GB RAM, 128 GB Crucial M4 SSD) + ITX-Desktop (Asrock H77M-ITX, Intel Core i3-2120T, 8GB RAM, 64 GB Samsung 830 SSD)

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#37 2012-07-24 09:32:32

vacant
Member
From: downstairs
Registered: 2004-11-05
Posts: 801

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

I'm probably missing the blindingly obvious*, but while I was condensing the new install wiki page to my own one page "reminder" notes I was wondering if there is even a need for a 64-bit installer?

The only 64 bit specific stuff:

1) Pacstrap  needs to know whether to download and install from 32 or 64 bit repositories
2) Before the new system can be booted, minimally a 64 bit kernel and fallback need downloading or generating.

I assume for people like me who maintain 32 & 64 bit, there's a way to provide the latest pacman/pkg cache to the installer?
[Edit: interrupted pacstrap during first package download, copied packages from usb flash drive into now-created /var/cache/pacman/pkg, pacstrap'd again and minimal downloads as most of the required packages were now in cache]

* Sorry, I'd normally spend time reading/investigating/experimenting but my daughter is in labour, so not getting much sleep and a bit preoccupied. Feel free to ignore a daft post.

Last edited by vacant (2012-07-24 12:14:42)

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#38 2012-07-24 09:40:31

webspider
Member
Registered: 2012-07-19
Posts: 27

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

@hoschi: not to mention that going with Arch in Egypt would be quite stupid. I'd rather use a live system on a cheap netbook, either prebuilt or selfmade on my main box.

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#39 2012-07-24 10:26:52

MisterAnderson
Member
Registered: 2011-09-04
Posts: 284

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Bloody hell, if you're pissing and moaning about not being able to install arch whilst your government is oppressing its people, you've got bigger problems. :S

And imagine what a pain it must have been to make sure that the versions of each package on a core cd would all happily play together every time you updated the installation media, no wonder it's net install only. Even if you did core install before, you still needed to install SOMETHING after you booted your new system, I guarantee you. So if it's not on the net, you'd have to download the package from somewhere else and transfer it, why not just do it with all the packages in the first place?

P.S. To those starting their own wrapper for the new scripts start a thread so we can all help (or link to it so we know it's there) and let's try to include systemd as a default! It's taking over anyway, may as well offer to start with it.


D:

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#40 2012-07-24 10:54:53

hoschi
Member
From: Ulm (Germany)
Registered: 2008-11-03
Posts: 356
Website

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Well. You now what an example is?


I'm just don't want needlessly depend on something I can't controll.
Even if I trust it and use is regularly under normal circumstances.
Having a fast and reliable connection is not, and will never,  guaranteed.
Having a fast and reliable server with all the packages on it, is not guaranteed.

Of course I can use every cloud service out there.
Store my most important notes on a server and only on the server of somebody else.
Sometimes (less frequently) I use this services. But I don't trust blindly. I don't store
important things there and don't rely on them.

Even an iPad doesn't require me to have a internet connection. Arch does now.
You sound to me like an owner of Microsoft and Apple computer keep asking "So
much unneeded work for Linux, just for beeing free and independent?"
Answer: "YES!"

I don't need this, but you can maybe imageine
why freedom and independence are connected with each other.

I wonder if their are people, who spend their holidays in souther africa and ask why SIRI wont work.
Will the blame Apple? Or do they think twice?


PS: Maybe you think about your bearing/sound.

Last edited by hoschi (2012-07-24 11:16:49)

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#41 2012-07-24 11:52:00

MisterAnderson
Member
Registered: 2011-09-04
Posts: 284

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Ever thought that in the arch community, you aren't independent? That seems to be your main problem.

I depend on the community and devs every single day. Without them arch wouldn't exist, and arch would fail to keep existing.

If you want true independence you really have to go LFS, or if you don't wan't to depend on the linux kernel devs, your choice is now write your own system, grab what someone else has and work on it independently, or stop complaining.

I'm thinking a different distro is going to be best suited to you. You really should start looking around if these are issues you feel this strongly about.


D:

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#42 2012-07-24 12:08:45

hoschi
Member
From: Ulm (Germany)
Registered: 2008-11-03
Posts: 356
Website

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Running away from problems doesn't fix anything, nor improve anything.
Fixing it, improves it and won't harm anybody.

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#43 2012-07-24 12:48:43

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,173

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

The workflow is now different. In the past, you downloaded the core image and installed it. Today you download the netinst image, fetch the base packages and install the packages from those files. This is one simple (highly script-friendly) additional step for you, saving our devs bandwidth, tests and other valuable time they could invest in a better system or even their free time. Nothing stopps you from keeping a snapshot of [core] on a CD, that's really all you need.

 sudo pacman -Sw `pacman -Ss | grep core/ | awk '{print $1}'`

I know, I need to learn more awk to save pipes and this is not the most elegant way, but downloading a whole repo is too easy to have it as an excuse for more work for the devs. You should, by the way, also keep a copy of the sync db of pacman, because it might complain or simply refuse to work as expected.


@vacant: Now you said something… if I think about it, the installer wouldn't have to be based on Arch at all, you can install Arch from anything that can mount linux filesystems and run pacman. Okay, it should be Linux, (/dev/ and so on for the chroot…), but the installer could be trimmed down even more.

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#44 2012-07-24 12:56:44

progandy
Member
Registered: 2012-05-17
Posts: 2,146

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Awebb wrote:

I know, I need to learn more awk to save pipes and this is not the most elegant way, but downloading a whole repo is too easy to have it as an excuse for more work for the devs. You should, by the way, also keep a copy of the sync db of pacman, because it might complain or simply refuse to work as expected.

The wiki contains a whole article about creating a mirror: https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Local_Mirror

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#45 2012-07-24 13:31:30

stargeizer
Member
Registered: 2004-04-05
Posts: 8

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

Honestly, i don't know why the fuss... As of Today, the old CD installer still work just fine as long as you:

- Do a network install
- Use syslinux as a boot loader.

Yes,  i just installed arch this way, on a bare machine. From what i can see, the AIF only requires an update to support GRUB 2 and a local core snapshot for those who need an offline installer.

The "packages signed" problem is not a problem when you are installing this way, but once installed and rebooted, is higly probable you'll want to disable the signature check (I have defined SigLevel with "Never" for the time being), as a base install doesn't have enough entropy to make "pacman-key --init" work in reasonable time, and in somewhat older computers is just impractical. ("move your mouse", yeah right... you don't even have xorg installed and people says that... sigh... just what were you smoking??)

Last edited by stargeizer (2012-07-24 13:35:22)

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#46 2012-07-24 14:43:20

zebulon
Member
Registered: 2008-10-20
Posts: 235

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

I have done a lot of work on the new Beginner's guide (Installation section): click here
I have salvaged the good things from the original guide and replaced the old AIF instructions with the new scripts usage ones. I hope this is fine with you (don;t want to monopolise the work!) and it would be great if people could test the installation procedure again.

Last edited by zebulon (2012-07-24 14:49:09)

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#47 2012-07-24 14:54:58

silentsnake
Member
Registered: 2012-02-23
Posts: 57

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

You don't need xorg for the kernel to recognize mouse input.

Just run
watch cat /proc/sys/kernel/random/entropy_avail

move your mouse and check it out.

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#48 2012-07-24 15:37:17

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,427

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

hoschi wrote:

Running away from problems doesn't fix anything, nor improve anything.
Fixing it, improves it and won't harm anybody.

I've already suggested how can you do it yourself: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 2#p1135272
Is there a problem with this solution?

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#49 2012-07-24 16:00:49

ataraxia
Member
From: Pittsburgh
Registered: 2007-05-06
Posts: 1,537

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

zebulon wrote:

I have done a lot of work on the new Beginner's guide (Installation section): click here
I have salvaged the good things from the original guide and replaced the old AIF instructions with the new scripts usage ones. I hope this is fine with you (don;t want to monopolise the work!) and it would be great if people could test the installation procedure again.

That's a really impressive amount of work. It looks really good.

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#50 2012-07-24 16:41:52

progandy
Member
Registered: 2012-05-17
Posts: 2,146

Re: Install media 2012.07.15

stargeizer wrote:

The "packages signed" problem is not a problem when you are installing this way, but once installed and rebooted, is higly probable you'll want to disable the signature check (I have defined SigLevel with "Never" for the time being), as a base install doesn't have enough entropy to make "pacman-key --init" work in reasonable time, and in somewhat older computers is just impractical. ("move your mouse", yeah right... you don't even have xorg installed and people says that... sigh... just what were you smoking??)

Just include haveged when installing the base packages and run it before you init the keyring. The installation medium contains haveged, too So run it before entering the chroot and run pacman-key --init in the chroot.

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