You are not logged in.

#151 2013-02-26 22:07:16

anonymous_user
Member
Registered: 2009-08-28
Posts: 3,058

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

By wanting to avoid toolkits, wouldn't you end up with mostly cli-based programs? Also surf (a suckless program), through webkit, does rely on GTK+.

Last edited by anonymous_user (2013-02-26 22:07:34)

Offline

#152 2013-02-26 22:32:15

D4ve
Member
Registered: 2012-08-02
Posts: 209

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Trilby wrote:

I'm skeptical of wayland/weston's future.

The project is now 4 years old and still in active development, i'm sure it will replace x (one day...)

smile

Offline

#153 2013-02-26 22:45:04

nomorewindows
Member
Registered: 2010-04-03
Posts: 3,015

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

chris_l wrote:
Trilby wrote:

If I ever win the lottery (unlikely as I don't buy tickets), I'll start working on TKFDE: the toolkit-free desktop environment.

You don't need to win the lottery, you can just save money to put something like an store, hire someone else to take care of it, and live from that income. You would need to dedicate some time to check it, etc, but still would be much less time than on a regular day job.

But you have a better chance of getting struck twice by lightning than to win the lottery.


I may have to CONSOLE you about your usage of ridiculously easy graphical interfaces...
Look ma, no mouse.

Offline

#154 2013-02-26 23:44:36

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 14,213
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

anonymous_user wrote:

By wanting to avoid toolkits, wouldn't you end up with mostly cli-based programs?

Nope.  X11 is not cli.  I made a spreadsheet program with just Xlib drawing functions.  It has "buttons" and all.  I don't know where everyone gets the idea that you need gtk or qt to have a gui.

Yes, surf uses gtk, but only because there does not seem to be any web rendering engine that doesn't depend on a toolkit ... which itself is odd, web content doesn't need "widgets".

On that note, something linux is missing: a web rendering engine that does not have pointless toolkit dependencies.  Luakit is the only reason I have any toolkit installed at all, and that is not because luakit itself uses any gtk widgets, just that webkit requires gtk.

Last edited by Trilby (2013-02-26 23:47:39)


InterrobangSlider
• How's my coding? See this page.
• How's my moderating? Feel free to email any concerns, complaints, or objections.

Offline

#155 2013-02-27 03:28:26

chris_l
Member
Registered: 2010-12-01
Posts: 387

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

D4ve wrote:
Trilby wrote:

I'm skeptical of wayland/weston's future.

The project is now 4 years old and still in active development, i'm sure it will replace x (one day...)

smile

Not for every single use. Maybe it will replace on regular desktops, but for instance I use desktop virtualization, and the server/client style of X is perfect for that. I'm pretty sure something like wayland make sense on regular desktop linux installations, but since wayland will abandon the server/client modality, it will never replace X on the fields where that is required.


"open source is about choice"
No.
Open source is about opening the source code complying with this conditions, period. The ability to choose among several packages is just a nice side effect.

Offline

#156 2013-02-27 08:12:28

Awebb
Member
Registered: 2010-05-06
Posts: 4,539

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Wayland cannot replace X, as Wayland has only a subset of X's features and a different scope. It's like comparing a car and a motorcycle, the car has all the features: A trunk for cargo, multiple passenger seats and enough power to move all that. A motorcycle has only one real seat (a second one, but less comfortable) and if you want to move cargo, you have to get additional hardware (a trailer coupling, a trailer, connectors for the lights… or maybe something entirely different). The motorcycle is meant to bring a person from A to B as fast as possible and look good at the same time.

If we really wanted X to vanish, we'd have to implement all the features we are used in X in seperat modules. It looks like gtk, qt and sdl are all on the way towards supporting Wayland. By the way: I do not understand, how you can say, that Wayland abandoned the server/client concept, as everything actually is just a Wayland client. If you're talking about "network transparency", this is supposed to be implemented as a client.

Online

#157 2013-02-27 09:23:18

slint
Member
Registered: 2009-05-22
Posts: 31

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Good gesture support for trackpads like in OS X. My hope lies in wayland here, as they still have to implement the touchpad drivers.

Offline

#158 2013-02-27 11:39:13

D4ve
Member
Registered: 2012-08-02
Posts: 209

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

@chris_I and @Awebb

Wayland has a server/client struture.

You should look the video of Daniel Stone from Feb. 2013, he explains why x has no true network transparency and why wayland will have something like network transparency, only better.

And yes, wayland only supports a small subset of x11 functions, but: why not? It's modular too, you can write your own functions if you really miss something (I don't think you will miss something).

So, what do you really miss under wayland besides a desktop environment?

Wayland is smaller, has all the required functions to run a desktop, is hardware accelerated and feels smoother than x. Something like network-transparency is already in development and the 2 main-toolkits are already ported.

I really can't see any disadvantage.

Offline

#159 2013-02-27 12:05:00

mzneverdies
Member
Registered: 2012-02-04
Posts: 147

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

I miss a real dialog to calibrate my gamepad buttons, not only the axis, since most games use the xbox pad layout and mine is different sad

xbox layout
xy
ab

my layout (logitech cordless rumblepad2)
ay
bx

Last edited by mzneverdies (2013-02-27 12:05:17)

Offline

#160 2013-02-27 12:14:32

skanky
Member
From: WAIS
Registered: 2009-10-23
Posts: 1,841

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Trilby wrote:
anonymous_user wrote:

By wanting to avoid toolkits, wouldn't you end up with mostly cli-based programs?

Nope.  X11 is not cli.  I made a spreadsheet program with just Xlib drawing functions.  It has "buttons" and all.  I don't know where everyone gets the idea that you need gtk or qt to have a gui.

Yes, surf uses gtk, but only because there does not seem to be any web rendering engine that doesn't depend on a toolkit ... which itself is odd, web content doesn't need "widgets".

On that note, something linux is missing: a web rendering engine that does not have pointless toolkit dependencies.  Luakit is the only reason I have any toolkit installed at all, and that is not because luakit itself uses any gtk widgets, just that webkit requires gtk.

I've not looked recently, so my memory may be suspect but I *think* links may have an incomplete one - doesn't support js for example.


"...one cannot be angry when one looks at a penguin."  - John Ruskin
"Life in general is a bit shit, and so too is the internet. And that's all there is." - scepticisle

Offline

#161 2013-02-27 13:13:49

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 14,213
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

skanky wrote:

I *think* links may have an incomplete one - doesn't support js for example.

Perhaps my terminology is off, as in one sense all text-mode browers do render web content.  Links does have a "graphical" mode, but I just tried it from AUR: it is a lot like w3m's graphic mode where it is really just rendering plain text,  but it can insert images at the right places.  I can definitely do without javascript, but properly rendering (at least basic) styling would be what I'm referring to.  Opening up bbs.archlinux.org in links -g for example, shows the navigation "tabs" in a bulleted list, entries are just a plain text list and not in rendered divs with borders/colors, quotes and code blocks are just shown as plain text with only an indentation change to signal the difference.

Links is great, but it's not really a proper web rendering engine in my book.


InterrobangSlider
• How's my coding? See this page.
• How's my moderating? Feel free to email any concerns, complaints, or objections.

Offline

#162 2013-02-27 14:11:11

skanky
Member
From: WAIS
Registered: 2009-10-23
Posts: 1,841

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Trilby wrote:
skanky wrote:

I *think* links may have an incomplete one - doesn't support js for example.

Perhaps my terminology is off, as in one sense all text-mode browers do render web content.  Links does have a "graphical" mode, but I just tried it from AUR: it is a lot like w3m's graphic mode where it is really just rendering plain text,  but it can insert images at the right places.  I can definitely do without javascript, but properly rendering (at least basic) styling would be what I'm referring to.  Opening up bbs.archlinux.org in links -g for example, shows the navigation "tabs" in a bulleted list, entries are just a plain text list and not in rendered divs with borders/colors, quotes and code blocks are just shown as plain text with only an indentation change to signal the difference.

Links is great, but it's not really a proper web rendering engine in my book.

Ah, my mistake. It was the graphical mode I was thinking of. As I say, it was a while ago that I looked at it.


"...one cannot be angry when one looks at a penguin."  - John Ruskin
"Life in general is a bit shit, and so too is the internet. And that's all there is." - scepticisle

Offline

#163 2013-02-27 14:24:13

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 14,213
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Hmm, I've just found that presto (opera's renderer) may not have any such dependencies.  Opera itself does not depend on any toolkit - it does depend on glib2 which is a base for gtk, but it doesn't require to toolkit itself.

I may have a new project lined up if I can find a presto API.


InterrobangSlider
• How's my coding? See this page.
• How's my moderating? Feel free to email any concerns, complaints, or objections.

Offline

#164 2013-02-27 14:36:18

skanky
Member
From: WAIS
Registered: 2009-10-23
Posts: 1,841

Re: something that you feel linux is missing


"...one cannot be angry when one looks at a penguin."  - John Ruskin
"Life in general is a bit shit, and so too is the internet. And that's all there is." - scepticisle

Offline

#165 2013-02-27 14:55:19

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 14,213
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

D'Oh! Back to the drawing board.


InterrobangSlider
• How's my coding? See this page.
• How's my moderating? Feel free to email any concerns, complaints, or objections.

Offline

#166 2013-02-27 15:06:47

jakobcreutzfeldt
Member
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,033

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

I don't really care about toolkit dependencies but what I want to see is an HTML renderer that strictly enforces a restricted subset of XHTML (no scripts, for example, no frames shoving a bunch of crap on both sides of the text I'm trying to read, etc) and throws out the rest, gets rid of cookies and all that nonsense and that ignores all server-provided CSS in favor of user-specified styling. I know you can achieve this with most browsers, but then you get along all the bulk of a huge javascript interpreter and styling support.

Last edited by jakobcreutzfeldt (2013-02-27 15:07:49)

Offline

#167 2013-02-27 15:09:39

drcouzelis
Member
From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 2009-11-09
Posts: 3,523
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Wait, did you say WebKit depends on a GUI library? But WebKit is used in the (relatively) new WebPositive web browser for Haiku, and they certainly aren't including Qt or GTK... sad

Offline

#168 2013-02-27 15:11:57

jakobcreutzfeldt
Member
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,033

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

jakobcreutzfeldt wrote:

I don't really care about toolkit dependencies but what I want to see is an HTML renderer that strictly enforces a restricted subset of XHTML (no scripts, for example, no frames shoving a bunch of crap on both sides of the text I'm trying to read, etc) and throws out the rest, gets rid of cookies and all that nonsense and that ignores all server-provided CSS in favor of user-specified styling. I know you can achieve this with most browsers, but then you get along all the bulk of a huge javascript interpreter and styling support.

I should further clarify and state that this hypothetical HTML renderer would render web designers obsolete. I don't want to see your vision of what a great web design is. I just want to read. You specify the body of text with embedded images, and maybe a navigation bar, and that's it. The user then determines how that should look.

Last edited by jakobcreutzfeldt (2013-02-27 15:12:21)

Offline

#169 2013-02-27 15:15:24

skanky
Member
From: WAIS
Registered: 2009-10-23
Posts: 1,841

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

AFAICS Gecko doesn't depend on a toolkit, though I may be missing something: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/doc … ng_Mozilla
Anyway, here's a list of rendering engines, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_w … er_engines I haven't looked at them all yet, but NetSurf has a framebuffer port, so could be worth a look.


"...one cannot be angry when one looks at a penguin."  - John Ruskin
"Life in general is a bit shit, and so too is the internet. And that's all there is." - scepticisle

Offline

#170 2013-02-27 15:29:12

drcouzelis
Member
From: Connecticut, USA
Registered: 2009-11-09
Posts: 3,523
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

jakobcreutzfeldt wrote:
jakobcreutzfeldt wrote:

I don't really care about toolkit dependencies but what I want to see is an HTML renderer that strictly enforces a restricted subset of XHTML (no scripts, for example, no frames shoving a bunch of crap on both sides of the text I'm trying to read, etc) and throws out the rest, gets rid of cookies and all that nonsense and that ignores all server-provided CSS in favor of user-specified styling. I know you can achieve this with most browsers, but then you get along all the bulk of a huge javascript interpreter and styling support.

I should further clarify and state that this hypothetical HTML renderer would render web designers obsolete. I don't want to see your vision of what a great web design is. I just want to read. You specify the body of text with embedded images, and maybe a navigation bar, and that's it. The user then determines how that should look.

For a moment there I thought you were describing the Dillo web browser. wink

Offline

#171 2013-02-27 15:32:14

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 14,213
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Webkit shouldn't have to rely on a toolkit - it doesn't functionally rely on any toolkit.  But the only APIs currently available are either through gtk or qt (or mac-based toolkits like cocoa).

Gecko may still be toolkit free.  I guess when I had last gone hunting for one, I was looking for a C API which (AFAIK) gecko lacks as it is written entirely in C++.

Netsurf may have versions with reduced dependencies, but the version in the repos has a boatload of dependencies, including gtk2.

Last edited by Trilby (2013-02-27 15:33:45)


InterrobangSlider
• How's my coding? See this page.
• How's my moderating? Feel free to email any concerns, complaints, or objections.

Offline

#172 2013-02-27 15:32:18

jakobcreutzfeldt
Member
Registered: 2011-05-12
Posts: 1,033

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

drcouzelis wrote:

For a moment there I thought you were describing the Dillo web browser. wink

I just discovered Dillo and I've been playing with it. It's pretty darn close, actually.

Offline

#173 2013-02-27 15:59:12

skanky
Member
From: WAIS
Registered: 2009-10-23
Posts: 1,841

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

The Netsurf browser is separate to the rendering engine, and the latter should need far fewer dependencies: http://source.netsurf-browser.org/netsu … /LIBRARIES
Looking at the monkey build may give an idea as to how small it can be - http://source.netsurf-browser.org/netsurf.git/tree/Docs


"...one cannot be angry when one looks at a penguin."  - John Ruskin
"Life in general is a bit shit, and so too is the internet. And that's all there is." - scepticisle

Offline

#174 2013-02-28 21:24:27

Hyugga
Member
From: Santiago, Chile
Registered: 2010-03-26
Posts: 329

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Real hardware drivers and support...

Offline

#175 2013-02-28 21:33:20

Trilby
Forum Moderator
From: Massachusetts, USA
Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 14,213
Website

Re: something that you feel linux is missing

Thanks for the netsurf suggestion - I just got time to start looking at it, and it looks very promising.  Now all I need to find is some free time! wink


InterrobangSlider
• How's my coding? See this page.
• How's my moderating? Feel free to email any concerns, complaints, or objections.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB