Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

jddantes · 2013-10-27 10:39:38

I initially had Windows 7, then Arch. Now, I have a key for Windows 8. I can just upgrade the previous Windows 7 partition, but I only allocated 37 GB originally, so I want to expand it - I would therefore need to delete the partition and make a new one. However, dual-booting guides say that Windows should be first. What is the best way to go about this?

Steef435 · 2013-10-27 11:24:44

I think the best way would be to indeed install Windows first, so it can't mess with your Linux installation. But I think I would back up my data, resize the partitions to my liking, upgrade Windows(which will at least break the bootloader) and try to chroot into arch, modify my fstab and get grub working again. I've never done it though, so I'm not sure what the outcome would be.

Good luck.

Last edited by Steef435 (2013-10-27 11:25:34)

anonymous_user · 2013-10-27 14:10:30

It is possible to install Linux first. You'll just have to start the LiveCD again, chroot your Linux partitions, and reinstall/resetup GRUB after installing Windows.

Last edited by anonymous_user (2013-10-27 14:11:00)

donniezazen · 2013-10-28 02:03:56

You don't have to delete any OS. Use any graphical distro that comes with Gparted and resize however you want. Windows will overwrite Grub making it inaccessible. It would save you some time installing Grub if you install Windows first. Otherwise you can always install Grub after the installation.

srs5694 · 2013-10-28 03:27:47

Keep in mind that things can be a bit different if the computer boots in EFI mode vs. the more common (on older computers) BIOS mode. Specifically, in an EFI-mode installation, the Windows installer should not actually overwrite GRUB, but it will almost certainly put the Windows boot loader first in the NVRAM boot loader list. This will have the same effect as overwriting GRUB (namely, it will make Windows boot by default), but the solution is different: Instead of re-installing GRUB, you must adjust your boot loader list by using "bcdedit" in Windows, "bcfg" in an EFI shell, or "efibootmgr" in Linux.

Mr.Elendig · 2013-10-29 12:31:30

If you use uefi it shouldn't cause any problems, but keep an arch install image around anyway. If you are not using uefi then windows will overwrite whatever bootloader you are using,

x33a · 2013-10-29 13:19:57

Mr.Elendig wrote:

If you use uefi it shouldn't cause any problems, but keep an arch install image around anyway. If you are not using uefi then windows will overwrite whatever bootloader you are using,

Can Windows 8 work without UEFI?

qinohe · 2013-10-29 14:46:00

x33a wrote:

Mr.Elendig wrote:
If you use uefi it shouldn't cause any problems, but keep an arch install image around anyway. If you are not using uefi then windows will overwrite whatever bootloader you are using,
Can Windows 8 work without UEFI?

It does, otherwise they would be cutting their own fingers, cause everybody with slightly older hardware wouldn't buy win8 for their machines
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/libr … 25677.aspx

x33a · 2013-10-29 19:06:11

@ qinohe

Thanks, that's interesting. I always thought that it didn't run without secure boot.

srs5694 · 2013-10-31 17:26:35

x33a wrote:

Thanks, that's interesting. I always thought that it didn't run without secure boot.

Note that Secure Boot is NOT synonymous with EFI. Secure Boot is one optional feature of EFI. In fact, of five computers I've got that use EFI, only one supports Secure Boot.

Microsoft requires manufacturers to ship their computers with Secure Boot enabled in order to get a Windows 8-compatible sticker. Because most manufacturers consider the lack of such a sticker to be the kiss of death for their products, this means that nearly all computers that ship with Windows 8 ship with Secure Boot enabled. Because Secure Boot is an EFI feature, this means that these computers also use EFI.

This does not mean that Windows 8 itself requires either EFI or Secure Boot; the requirement is a marketing requirement for new computers. If you buy a Windows 8 package at the store, it will install on an older BIOS-only computer (assuming it's not too old), on an EFI computer that lacks Secure Boot support, on an EFI computer with Secure Boot support but with that feature disabled, or on an EFI computer with Secure Boot and Microsoft's keys enabled. (It is possible to replace your firmware's Secure Boot keys, which would prevent the installation of Windows unless you re-signed the Windows boot loader yourself.)

Note also that it's possible to switch Secure Boot on and off, at least on x86-64 systems. (Microsoft's Windows 8 sticker requirements specify that users must be able to do this on x86-64 systems; but on ARM computers, Microsoft's sticker requirements say that users must not be able to disable Secure Boot.) Windows 8 should continue to boot when you turn Secure Boot on or off; however, some versions of GRUB have problems chainloading to other EFI boot loaders (including the Windows boot loader) when Secure Boot is enabled.

qinohe · 2013-10-31 18:55:44

srs5694 wrote:

Note also that it's possible to switch Secure Boot on and off, at least on x86-64 systems. (Microsoft's Windows 8 sticker requirements specify that users must be able to do this on x86-64 systems; but on ARM computers, Microsoft's sticker requirements say that users must not be able to disable Secure Boot.) Windows 8 should continue to boot when you turn Secure Boot on or off; however, some versions of GRUB have problems chainloading to other EFI boot loaders (including the Windows boot loader) when Secure Boot is enabled.

I tried to understand that part on MSDN,

msdn wrote:

Programmatic disabling of Secure Boot either during Boot Services or after exiting EFI Boot Services MUST NOT be possible. Disabling Secure Boot must not be possible on ARM systems.
If the firmware is reset to factory defaults, then any customized Secure Boot variables are also factory reset.

Does this mean you can never get rid of it, cause it always defaults to secure boot? Bad course if you ask me:(
Or can you still wipe it of somehow, I' don't have that issue, but just like to know.

x33a · 2013-11-01 05:21:30

srs5694 wrote:

x33a wrote:
Thanks, that's interesting. I always thought that it didn't run without secure boot.
Note that Secure Boot is NOT synonymous with EFI. Secure Boot is one optional feature of EFI. In fact, of five computers I've got that use EFI, only one supports Secure Boot.

I did know that

Microsoft requires manufacturers to ship their computers with Secure Boot enabled in order to get a Windows 8-compatible sticker. Because most manufacturers consider the lack of such a sticker to be the kiss of death for their products, this means that nearly all computers that ship with Windows 8 ship with Secure Boot enabled. Because Secure Boot is an EFI feature, this means that these computers also use EFI.
This does not mean that Windows 8 itself requires either EFI or Secure Boot; the requirement is a marketing requirement for new computers. If you buy a Windows 8 package at the store, it will install on an older BIOS-only computer (assuming it's not too old), on an EFI computer that lacks Secure Boot support, on an EFI computer with Secure Boot support but with that feature disabled, or on an EFI computer with Secure Boot and Microsoft's keys enabled. (It is possible to replace your firmware's Secure Boot keys, which would prevent the installation of Windows unless you re-signed the Windows boot loader yourself.)
Note also that it's possible to switch Secure Boot on and off, at least on x86-64 systems. (Microsoft's Windows 8 sticker requirements specify that users must be able to do this on x86-64 systems; but on ARM computers, Microsoft's sticker requirements say that users must not be able to disable Secure Boot.) Windows 8 should continue to boot when you turn Secure Boot on or off; however, some versions of GRUB have problems chainloading to other EFI boot loaders (including the Windows boot loader) when Secure Boot is enabled.

Thanks, that's very informative.

jddantes · 2013-11-01 06:51:57

I went ahead and installed Windows 8 anyway. I've managed to discover EasyBCD (apcmag.com/how-to-dual-boot-windows-8-and-linux.htm), and the Linux partition shows up. However, choosing it loads GRUB4DOS. Can anyone provide me a clear-cut set of commands to type in (since it will be hard for me to browse the net looking for instructions while doing the process itself)?

anonymous_user's idea looks good, but right now I don't have my USB/any CD with me, so that will have to wait.

Also, I don't use UEFI.

Last edited by jddantes (2013-11-01 07:08:16)

Mr.Elendig · 2013-11-01 11:39:21

Just follow the grub page on our wiki after you have installed 8. grub4dos is somewhat silly.

srs5694 · 2013-11-01 15:59:19

qinohe wrote:

msdn wrote:
Programmatic disabling of Secure Boot either during Boot Services or after exiting EFI Boot Services MUST NOT be possible. Disabling Secure Boot must not be possible on ARM systems.
If the firmware is reset to factory defaults, then any customized Secure Boot variables are also factory reset.
Does this mean you can never get rid of it, cause it always defaults to secure boot? Bad course if you ask me:(
Or can you still wipe it of somehow, I' don't have that issue, but just like to know.

There are two issues here:

Basic Secure Boot design, as detailed in the UEFI 2.x specification documents -- The basic Secure Boot design requires that OS-level programs not be able to disable Secure Boot. After all, if OS-level programs could disable Secure Boot, then any virus that came along would be able to disable the feature, rendering it useless. This is what the word "programmatic" in your quote means.
Microsoft's Windows 8 certification requirements -- These requirements specify that users must be able to disable Secure Boot on x86 or x86-64 hardware, but that users must not be able to disable Secure Boot on ARM hardware. It's very important to note that this is a Microsoft requirement for manufacturers who want a Windows 8 sticker to put on their hardware. If you were to sell your own line of computers, even Windows 8 computers, that lack this sticker, you could ignore Microsoft's certification requirements.

As a practical matter, Microsoft's dominance of the x86 and x86-64 marketplace means that the requirement that Secure Boot can be disabled carries real weight. I know of no x86 or x86-64 system on which Secure Boot can not be disabled. Microsoft is a bit player in the ARM marketplace, so their requirement that Secure Boot can not be disabled on such computers means very little; however, this could change, so Secure Boot on ARM (or conceivably on other platforms) could become a serious issue in the future. For that matter, Microsoft might change its requirements for Windows 8.2, 9, or whatever.

qinohe · 2013-11-01 16:42:57

Yes, clear. Is things like this that make me have doubts about open hardware availability in the near/future. We'll see, but everything points in that direction.
For now everything looks open, but all doors to close up are already there, I surely hope more open players get in the ARM market, but also x86 & x86_64 because otherwise your machine will be a jail in a way Microsoft wants it, that can't be good.

jddantes · 2013-11-01 18:50:55

Okay, so here's what I've done so far.

1. I had Windows 7 and then Arch, but needed to install Windows 8 (and resize partitions), thus clearing the previous GRUB setup.
2. I used EasyBCD; now I can choose between Windows and Arch, except that choosing Arch leads me to a GRUB prompt (GRUB4DOS).
3. I tried grub-install

grub-install --root-directory=/mnt /dev/sda

(via live Lubuntu), but that only brought the GRUB prompt to the front. Instead of an option between Windows and Arch, it was GRUB4DOS.
4. Again using live Lubuntu, I managed to bring back the EasyBCD setup (where I could choose between Windows and Arch) with boot repair.

Here are other options I've tried:
5. Going with the suggestion to go back to the wiki, I went with

#grub-install --targei386-pc --recheck --debug /dev/sda

but unfortunately ended up with

path '/boot/grub' is not readable by grub on boot. Installation is impossible. Aborting

6. I've also stumbled upon using grub itself.

find /boot/grub/stage1
root(hd0,2)
setup(hd0)

but it returned an error as well:

Warning! command not found:setup

(could this be because I confused GRUB2 for GRUB Legacy? Is setup only for Legacy? )

7. I also found this thread https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=147200 and did

# mount /dev/sda3 /mnt
arch-chroot /mnt

and got stopped before I could run grub-install, with the error message

ERROR: failed to setup API filesystems in chroot/mnt

Any ideas?

jddantes · 2013-11-01 19:07:37

Also I just rebooted, and it loaded up the metro Windows 8 style Choose an Operating System screen. I chose Arch and it gave me a black screen with a mouse pointer. I hard-resetted and it went back to the usual EasyBCD setup.

ewaller · 2013-11-07 03:02:34

Closed.

Let's continue with this thread

Original poster: I realize this continuation on the other thread is the ultimate thread hijack, sorry about that. If you want this reopened, use the report link and drop a note for the moderators to reopen, and we will.

Last edited by ewaller (2013-11-07 03:06:51)

Arch Linux

#1 2013-10-27 10:39:38

Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#2 2013-10-27 11:24:44

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#3 2013-10-27 14:10:30

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#4 2013-10-28 02:03:56

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#5 2013-10-28 03:27:47

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#6 2013-10-29 12:31:30

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#7 2013-10-29 13:19:57

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#8 2013-10-29 14:46:00

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#9 2013-10-29 19:06:11

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#10 2013-10-31 17:26:35

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#11 2013-10-31 18:55:44

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#12 2013-11-01 05:21:30

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#13 2013-11-01 06:51:57

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#14 2013-11-01 11:39:21

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#15 2013-11-01 15:59:19

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#16 2013-11-01 16:42:57

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#17 2013-11-01 18:50:55

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#18 2013-11-01 19:07:37

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

#19 2013-11-07 03:02:34

Re: Dual-booting with Windows 8, Arch Linux first?

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