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#26 2020-02-07 00:08:19

eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 3,699

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

My apologies; I've removed the second half.


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#27 2020-03-11 22:30:42

wooque
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Registered: 2016-10-13
Posts: 12

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

Is there a way to disable systemd-homed from even starting?

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#28 2020-03-11 22:45:51

eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 3,699

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

Well, systemd-homed.service is auto-enabled by upstream, per default. So you could use "systemctl mask" to stop it from starting.


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#29 2020-03-12 00:05:13

wooque
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Registered: 2016-10-13
Posts: 12

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

Thanks.
Disabled both systemd-homed and systemd-userdbd. Systemd services are getting a bit out of hand smile

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#30 2020-03-12 00:50:54

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
Posts: 24,430
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Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

headkase wrote:

And what is best about that is that it represents a "convergence" of things.

I do not share the premise implicit in this that "convergence" is a good thing.  The borg represented the convergence of various societies and species.

headkase wrote:

Enough distributions have adopted it that it is becoming "the" standard.  Cross-distribution standards like this facilitate software interoperability

You seem to conflate 'standard' with 'implementation'.  Systemd is not a standard - quite the opposite.  It is a specific implementation that other software must now work to try to cope with.  HTTP is a standard.  Netscape never was.

Standards are good.  A single implementation dominating and forcing compliance from everyone else is bad - very bad.

Last edited by Trilby (2020-03-12 00:51:50)


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#31 2020-03-12 01:13:26

eschwartz
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Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 3,699

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

I'd *hope* the only "standard" anyone needs to interoperate with, at least for systemd-homed, is...

... NSS as a supplement to /etc/passwd.

Literally everything else is just a bunch of dumb files. systemd hasn't invented anything new in this regard, since you could always mount some partition into /home (even an encrypted partition) and the only thing systemd-homed does above and beyond this is (cryptographically) store the NSS account information with the $HOME partition instead of /etc/passwd or an ldap service.

So uh, yay, I guess. One more *implementation* in our fragmented world, of the NSS paswd/shadow/group databases, and one more *implementation* in our fragmented world, of "encrypted partition management tools".

I'm not particularly convinced that this is some evil violation of any standard, but I certainly cannot fathom how anyone could claim this "reduces fragmentation" and "standardizes" anything.

systemd-homed "standards" in a nutshell: https://xkcd.com/927/


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#32 2020-03-13 19:01:12

89c51
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Registered: 2012-06-05
Posts: 734

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

How you migrate a current home to homed? Without losing anything in it that is. Is there a guide???

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#33 2020-03-13 20:51:03

WorMzy
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From: Scotland
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Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

It's not just the home directory, it is the entire user. I don't think there is a way to "convert" an existing account to the systemd-homed way of handling things. However, if you rename your current user and home directory, then recreate that user with homectl, and configure your system to allow systemd-homed accounts to log in, you can move your files over to the new home object once it's mounted.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-homed has some basic info on handling user accounts. Check the `homectl` man page for more details.


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#34 2020-03-13 21:49:31

89c51
Member
Registered: 2012-06-05
Posts: 734

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

WorMzy wrote:

It's not just the home directory, it is the entire user. I don't think there is a way to "convert" an existing account to the systemd-homed way of handling things. However, if you rename your current user and home directory, then recreate that user with homectl, and configure your system to allow systemd-homed accounts to log in, you can move your files over to the new home object once it's mounted.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-homed has some basic info on handling user accounts. Check the `homectl` man page for more details.

Yeah played a bit with it on a VM. Clean and easy. I'd go with it on my next install.

I was just expecting to be able to migrate automatically. Like homectl create _your username_ and merge the old one. Anyways.

Last edited by 89c51 (2020-03-13 21:51:03)

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#35 2020-03-14 17:51:37

headkase
Member
Registered: 2011-12-06
Posts: 1,873

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

eschwartz wrote:

I'd *hope* the only "standard" anyone needs to interoperate with, at least for systemd-homed, is...

... NSS as a supplement to /etc/passwd.

Literally everything else is just a bunch of dumb files. systemd hasn't invented anything new in this regard, since you could always mount some partition into /home (even an encrypted partition) and the only thing systemd-homed does above and beyond this is (cryptographically) store the NSS account information with the $HOME partition instead of /etc/passwd or an ldap service.

So uh, yay, I guess. One more *implementation* in our fragmented world, of the NSS paswd/shadow/group databases, and one more *implementation* in our fragmented world, of "encrypted partition management tools".

I'm not particularly convinced that this is some evil violation of any standard, but I certainly cannot fathom how anyone could claim this "reduces fragmentation" and "standardizes" anything.

systemd-homed "standards" in a nutshell: https://xkcd.com/927/

I respectfully disagree.  Think of it from this perspective: IBM just bought RedHat, billions for the purchase.  systemd originates from RedHat, it is an imposition of a defacto standard.  Whatever, take your shit and go type of standard.  Right now, that's actually beneficial.  Because think of this: one of the new homed features is transparently mounting encrypted CIFS network shares as your home folder.  Think of how useful that is in a corporate environment.  Not so much on Arch where more attention to maintenance is required, but, think, a corporate floor of identical computers where you can walk up to any one and be in business.  Those kinds of networks can then have automation like puppet keeping the fungible stations in service.  If Linux as an ecosystem in the desktop niche is to do more than survive, where we are now, and move onto thrive, then it's going to have to provide better functionality to be considered.  And systemd is making Linux, through the politics even, betterly functional.

Yes, it could all be done before but systemd makes life easier for system administrators, and never piss off a system administrator.  https://xkcd.com/705/ wink

Last edited by headkase (2020-03-14 17:56:44)

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#36 2020-03-14 18:08:37

Trilby
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Registered: 2011-11-29
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Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

Yes, all we need to do to make Linux compete with Windows is make Linux exactly like Windows.


"UNIX is simple and coherent..." - Dennis Ritchie, "GNU's Not UNIX" -  Richard Stallman

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#37 2020-03-14 18:20:31

headkase
Member
Registered: 2011-12-06
Posts: 1,873

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

Trilby wrote:

Yes, all we need to do to make Linux compete with Windows is make Linux exactly like Windows.

Nope, we need to make the technology invisible and I'd prefer a ghost that has code that is publicly available to audit.

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#38 2020-03-15 03:34:55

eschwartz
Trusted User/Bug Wrangler
Registered: 2014-08-08
Posts: 3,699

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

headkase wrote:

I respectfully disagree.  Think of it from this perspective: IBM just bought RedHat, billions for the purchase.  systemd originates from RedHat, it is an imposition of a defacto standard.  Whatever, take your shit and go type of standard.

"If it comes preinstalled on Red Hat Enterprise, then it's the standard" is I think what you're trying to say here?

And once again I say to you: that isn't what the word "standard" means. Red Hat can provide a common implementation, though (where "common" means "it works on Red Hat Enterprise Linux", apparently that being the only solution you will accept).

Right now, that's actually beneficial.  Because think of this: one of the new homed features is transparently mounting encrypted CIFS network shares as your home folder.  Think of how useful that is in a corporate environment.  Not so much on Arch where more attention to maintenance is required, but, think, a corporate floor of identical computers where you can walk up to any one and be in business.  Those kinds of networks can then have automation like puppet keeping the fungible stations in service.  If Linux as an ecosystem in the desktop niche is to do more than survive, where we are now, and move onto thrive, then it's going to have to provide better functionality to be considered.  And systemd is making Linux, through the politics even, betterly functional.

Yes, it could all be done before but systemd makes life easier for system administrators, and never piss off a system administrator.  https://xkcd.com/705/ wink

But I don't actually understand how you think this makes life easier for system administrators, since system administrators will actually want users to log in using the same LDAP/AD server they use to log in to Windows workstations and as a Single-Sign-On provider. Does systemd-homed provide this?

CIFS network shares as your home folder via LDAP login was not exactly an unsolved problem last I heard. There are COTS solutions for it that "just work".


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#39 2020-03-15 17:56:04

headkase
Member
Registered: 2011-12-06
Posts: 1,873

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

eschwartz wrote:
headkase wrote:

I respectfully disagree.  Think of it from this perspective: IBM just bought RedHat, billions for the purchase.  systemd originates from RedHat, it is an imposition of a defacto standard.  Whatever, take your shit and go type of standard.

"If it comes preinstalled on Red Hat Enterprise, then it's the standard" is I think what you're trying to say here?

And once again I say to you: that isn't what the word "standard" means. Red Hat can provide a common implementation, though (where "common" means "it works on Red Hat Enterprise Linux", apparently that being the only solution you will accept).

No, sorry, I meant to convey that it started with Red Hat, then IBM purchased Red Hat, and since both are titans in their fields then there can be confidence that systemd will continue to be developed instead of falling to the wayside like so many other efforts.  That is the backdrop systemd operates on.  Red Hat, being the first distribution to reach a billion buckaroos in business in a year, knows what they're doing, they have a plan, and they are doing it.  That quality, proven business sense, many other distributions lack and those are instead idealistic without that accompanying business acumen.

eschwartz wrote:

Right now, that's actually beneficial.  Because think of this: one of the new homed features is transparently mounting encrypted CIFS network shares as your home folder.  Think of how useful that is in a corporate environment.  Not so much on Arch where more attention to maintenance is required, but, think, a corporate floor of identical computers where you can walk up to any one and be in business.  Those kinds of networks can then have automation like puppet keeping the fungible stations in service.  If Linux as an ecosystem in the desktop niche is to do more than survive, where we are now, and move onto thrive, then it's going to have to provide better functionality to be considered.  And systemd is making Linux, through the politics even, betterly functional.

Yes, it could all be done before but systemd makes life easier for system administrators, and never piss off a system administrator.  https://xkcd.com/705/ wink

But I don't actually understand how you think this makes life easier for system administrators, since system administrators will actually want users to log in using the same LDAP/AD server they use to log in to Windows workstations and as a Single-Sign-On provider. Does systemd-homed provide this?

CIFS network shares as your home folder via LDAP login was not exactly an unsolved problem last I heard. There are COTS solutions for it that "just work".

Integration is the point that I think is best to argue from.  systemd takes services that used to be in separate silos and provides them all under a common roof.  It is a monolith in a sense, and that is not necessarily a bad thing as the Linux kernel is a monolith too.  The intent of a monolith is that the services it provides can be better integrated compared to implementations that focus on just a single aspect in the domain.  Single-aspect components must also develop standards to cooperate with other components, so since it has to be done anyway my preference is for systemd as I view integration as more desirable.

I've had a lot of thoughts while writing the above.  There will be standards either way, either a monolithic standard like systemd, or a general communications standard that various independent components use.  The UNIX philosophy started as "do one thing and do it well" and that would seem to favour the latter, multiple vendor components communicating through a standard channel, over the former, a monolith that is tightly integrated.  A bazaar or a cathedral.  The more things change..

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#40 2020-03-15 18:02:21

WorMzy
Forum Moderator
From: Scotland
Registered: 2010-06-16
Posts: 10,020
Website

Re: systemd-homed in Arch Linux

The speculative questions that started in this topic have now been conclusively answered: yes, systemd-homed will be in Arch, and no, you aren't forced to use it.

Closing this now to prevent further bikeshedding.


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Mobo: MSI X299 TOMAHAWK ARCTIC // Processor: Intel Core i7-7820X 3.6GHz // GFX: AMD Radeon RX 5700 XT // RAM: 32GB (4x 8GB) Corsair DDR4 (@ 3000MHz) // Storage: 1x 3TB HDD, 5x 1TB HDD, 2x 120GB SSD, 1x 275GB M2 SSD

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