[SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

molom · 2008-10-02 09:26:34

Once I took a step into these forums, I recognised that most members know much more than me when talking about the internals of linux.
My question is where can I learn much more about the internals? Do you learn just by using more advanced distro like Arch, Slackware or Gentoo, do you have to use LFS once in your life , do you read it somewhere or do you just learn out of being around often in these forums? Just wanted to know.

Cheers,
molom

Last edited by molom (2008-10-02 13:11:34)

ChoK · 2008-10-02 09:57:38

Hello there.
I had gentoo (6month) & Ubuntu (1 week) installed before Arch

If you want to learn hummm, seeing my personal experience, the best is to get stuck, and reading around the solution to your problem ( really frustrating too ). Some example : repartitioning your disc, getting the sound to work or video or compiz ( teaches to install a kernel module, or recompile it), autostart something, writing a script to automate something

etc...

fukawi2 · 2008-10-02 09:59:04

Experience is a big help which is mostly how I've learnt. Problem comes up, find a solution.

Something good to do is install a fairly 'simple' distro into a virtual machine, take a snapshot of the freshly installed system and then do whatever you like to it. If you completely screw it up, revert to the snapshot. Lesson learnt Doing `rm -Rf /` in a Virtual Machine is always fun. There's just that little adrenaline rush when you hit enter

When you say "internals" - that's a very broad description. Do you mean the kernel? A specific distribution? Specific package (eg, coreutils which is where ls, rm, cp, mv, chmod, chown etc come from) ? Filesystem structure (FHS)?

Reading the FHS is a good start IMHO. It certainly helped me make sense of things, which has flowed down to how I partition my system, how I install (and write) applications, and how my network is setup. http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html

Last edited by fukawi2 (2008-10-02 10:00:54)

SkonesMickLoud · 2008-10-02 10:07:20

IMO the best way to learn is to break it.

Set up a small partition with whatever flavor you feel like learning, don't list any other partitions in your fstab, just to make sure that it won't touch anything and then go nuts.

Delete important system files and their backups. Install unstable programs. It seems counter-intuitive to try to break an OS, but it's really the best way to learn.

ChoK · 2008-10-02 10:14:26

With our advices, I think he will not return
He is in the hopeful process of recovering from the rm -rf of his beloved install

molom · 2008-10-02 10:51:30

I know the rm -rf command, but I don't know what it does. Whenever there were support questions at the Ubuntu forums, I always gave the members needing support the rm -rf command because it was the only command I knew. I got banned, I don't know why...

molom · 2008-10-02 11:02:56

@fukawi2 & Skones
When I mean internals, I mean things like:
- Filesystem structure
- The Kernel
- The differences between package managers [apt, conary, pacman, etc.] (I don't see why there are so many)
- Most needed commands on Arch and other distros/bases
- Etc

I was looking at Barrucadu's guide on speeding Arch (http://blog.barrucadu.co.uk/2008/09/speed-up-arch/) and I'm just thinking 'He's 17 and knows how to do all those commands that I don't understand, how does he know all of that?'.

I can go into DE's, WM's, how to use them, different apps, distros, bases etc. but when it comes to the technical aspects, I'm just twiddling my fingers pretending to know and going 'yes, yes... go on'.

I'll try to break as many things as I can when I get my VM up then, but if you break something... How do you know how to fix it?

Last edited by molom (2008-10-02 11:03:35)

bangkok_manouel · 2008-10-02 11:03:35

if you have time and motivation, LFS would be the best I suppose. just set up a virtual machine and play with it.

Allan · 2008-10-02 11:16:19

LFS is good for learning what individual component of your base linux system do provided you don't just blindly follow the instructions and actually read the book. But you do spend a bit of time compiling. It is where I learnt everything about bootstraping a toolchain.

You can not learn everything about every part of your Linux system (unless you do not have anything else to do with your day I suppose...). Find a part that interests you. Use google to get background info and then try tweaking the configuration to you liking. There is no substitute to doing.

Edit: forgot to add, when something breaks on your machine, try to understand why it broke and how you would go about fixing it.

klixon · 2008-10-02 11:17:20

molom wrote:

@fukawi2 & Skones
When I mean internals, I mean things like:
- Filesystem structure
- The Kernel
- The differences between package managers [apt, conary, pacman, etc.] (I don't see why there are so many)
- Most needed commands on Arch and other distros/bases
- Etc
I was looking at Barrucadu's guide on speeding Arch (http://blog.barrucadu.co.uk/2008/09/speed-up-arch/) and I'm just thinking 'He's 17 and knows how to do all those commands that I don't understand, how does he know all of that?'.
I can go into DE's, WM's, how to use them, different apps, distros, bases etc. but when it comes to the technical aspects, I'm just twiddling my fingers pretending to know and going 'yes, yes... go on'.
I'll try to break as many things as I can when I get my VM up then, but if you break something... How do you know how to fix it?

- Try to live a few days at the command line. (no starting of X)
- use "man" a lot (you don't know what rm -rf means? type "man rm" at the command prompt and read)
- learn how bash works (google helps...)
- if you break something, try fixing it yourself... If you don't succed, google your problem and try to fix it... if you still don't succeed, ask help here and explain what you've tried to do to fix it. If the answer isn't informative enough, google what everything in the sollution does (or use man). If it's still not clear, ask for an explenation
- try stuff
- read stuff
- have fun
- don't follow orders. Follow diretions instead and look around en route to endpoint
- always try to find a solution yourself. This way you keep stuff better stored inside your head
- make notes if you have to
- examine /etc/rc.* for an inside look in the boot process and see how bash-scripting works
- man everything you don't understand in those scrips

molom · 2008-10-02 11:21:05

Allan wrote:

There is no substitute to doing.

I like that line

Ok then, I'll try LFS soon, just do general research to just have a general idea of what everything does and break some stuff in DSL using a VM
If I do LFS, does that mean I'll be able to know how to build a Debian, Arch or whatever Linux-base distribution. If that's true, I'll see that as an extra plus

Think I can go on from here, I'll change this post to solved

molom · 2008-10-02 11:23:27

klixon wrote:

- Try to live a few days at the command line. (no starting of X)
- use "man" a lot (you don't know what rm -rf means? type "man rm" at the command prompt and read)
- learn how bash works (google helps...)
- if you break something, try fixing it yourself... If you don't succed, google your problem and try to fix it... if you still don't succeed, ask help here and explain what you've tried to do to fix it. If the answer isn't informative enough, google what everything in the sollution does (or use man). If it's still not clear, ask for an explenation
- try stuff
- read stuff
- have fun
- don't follow orders. Follow diretions instead and look around en route to endpoint
- always try to find a solution yourself. This way you keep stuff better stored inside your head
- make notes if you have to
- examine /etc/rc.* for an inside look in the boot process and see how bash-scripting works
- man everything you don't understand in those scrips

Wow, thats specific! That's also good advice, thanks and I'll post when I become the next Linus, Finland here I come!

PS. That rm -rf thing was a joke

Last edited by molom (2008-10-02 11:24:26)

Allan · 2008-10-02 11:39:02

molom wrote:

If I do LFS, does that mean I'll be able to know how to build a Debian, Arch or whatever Linux-base distribution. If that's true, I'll see that as an extra plus

The base of every distribution is essentially the same. There are different boot scripts, different patches used and different package management systems and different choices in utilities. Deep down they are all the same, using the same tool chain (glibc, binutils and gcc) and the kernel. (Well, embeded systems use a different C library...)

bangkok_manouel · 2008-10-02 11:42:20

you may also subscribe to arch-dev-public mailing list. you'll see the problems that arch devs are facing, decisions they'll take and why. that's very interesting. pacman-dev ML or any other app you like ML can be interesting to follow too.

molom · 2008-10-02 11:53:51

Ok, I will subscribe next month since I don't have time to read all the announcements ATM.

BTW, Is there a PM function on these forums?

Cheers,
molom

Allan · 2008-10-02 12:21:27

molom wrote:

BTW, Is there a PM function on these forums?

No, only the email button.

tandycorp · 2008-10-04 15:09:06

Hey here are my tips:

1. Go to the Arch Beginners Guide printable version http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php?tit … ntable=yes and print it.

You could use Internet explorer (in windows) with the real printer drivers in case you get bad results using firefox (isshh some people will kill me but hey, printing in linux is not perfect still, even with a recent hp printer in my case).

Be sure to setup your printer for having 2 pages printed on each page (it creates 2 columns). This is a really important advice. The text will be small but I find that a lot easier to read, because it gives you a "zoom out" at this big document. Also you'll save around 35 sheets.

Try "reduce margins" if this option exists. Text should be a little bigger.

2. After that use a stampler (push fermly and it will be ok for 35 sheets, I tried it). Now you got a very good resource in hand, while working in the bash shell of arch.
Read page 54-58, it explains the arch Filesystem structure.
Read page 58 and beyond, it explains the Arch boot process.
With this guide you can configure your system (rc.conf), the graphics (xorg, nvidia/ati driver and the windows manager), the sound (alsa), etc.

3. Use man. Also most commands should have a "--help" option. Eg.

ls --help    killall --help    mv --help

To show the output in a page per page mode, use the |more option

ls --help |more

4. A very good thing to do once you've installed arch, some tools and a basic windows manager, is to learn about each "hidden" config file that was automatically installed in your home folder. In xterm or in the bash do :

nano .

don't hit enter now and hit tab twice. You'll see hidden files and folders. Now you could try to understand the .xinitrc , the .bashrc. Complete the name of the file and hit enter to edit it. You don't know what is the file named .Xresource and what it does? Search xresource on the Internet.

5. Many resources on www.gentoo.org. Look for basic sections. Some advanced information there could not fit with arch, but the basics are the same.

Last edited by tandycorp (2008-10-04 15:12:34)

z0phi3l · 2008-10-04 17:58:19

I have this forum and a thick ass book they gave me for the Linux classes I took. Yes it's for Fedora but a lot of the info is good enough for any distro, not that I've touched the book in a year, but if it's something I know the answer here will be too complex or understandable, I just might grab that book and see if I can decipher it out

Arch Linux

#1 2008-10-02 09:26:34

[SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#2 2008-10-02 09:57:38

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#3 2008-10-02 09:59:04

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#4 2008-10-02 10:07:20

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#5 2008-10-02 10:14:26

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#6 2008-10-02 10:51:30

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#7 2008-10-02 11:02:56

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#8 2008-10-02 11:03:35

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#9 2008-10-02 11:16:19

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#10 2008-10-02 11:17:20

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#11 2008-10-02 11:21:05

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#12 2008-10-02 11:23:27

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#13 2008-10-02 11:39:02

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#14 2008-10-02 11:42:20

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#15 2008-10-02 11:53:51

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#16 2008-10-02 12:21:27

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#17 2008-10-04 15:09:06

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

#18 2008-10-04 17:58:19

Re: [SOLVED] Where do I learn about the internals of Linux?

Board footer