General Repo Forum

KitchM · 2009-03-21 01:14:25

It would be nice to have a category for general repository and package issues.

If there is a forum for Pacman and Package Upgrades, why isn't there one for Package Installations? If there is a forum for the testing repo, why not for community, core, extra or others? There is a whole separate secton for AUR and ABS and requests, but nothing for package feedback.

It may be that the whole forum structure needs to be improved, but right now we need a place for package feedback.

Thanks.

Inxsible · 2009-03-21 01:19:59

pacman is the default installer and package manager for all the repos except the AUR (which is technically not a repo) So all inquiries about any package within any repo goes to the Pacman sub-forum.

Testing has a different forum, because
1) not everyone uses that repo since its testing obviously.
2) but if you are testing some package within it, there might be issues that you report - which will not be the concern of the general populace.

AUR is different because like I said its not official and also needs third party apps like yaourt or manual package building to be able to use

tomk · 2009-03-21 01:31:24

KitchM wrote:

...general repository and package issues...package feedback...

Could you be more specific? Without additional details, the answer is to use the bugtracker if you believe you have a problem with any Arch package.

KitchM · 2009-04-07 18:47:56

Thanks for the replies. It is appreciated.

tomk:
One part of the issue is that it appears to be slightly confusing to figure whether or not something is a bug or just the user's misconfiguration or misuse. The more of a newbie, the more it becomes a worrisome question for the user. The last thing one wants is to be shot down simply because someone else thinks the answer is obvious.

In fact, I would make a page where the forums, wiki's, bug tracking and other resources comes together, with simple instructions about which to use when. My experience is that we often assume too much when it comes to usability for everyone. We need the lowest common denominator.

Inxsible:
So then shouldn't Shaman, the preferred front-end, be included there as well? My cursory review indicates to me that the forum index could better be served with sub-categories. (A folding outline format would be very cool.) One might have a package section with specific areas for Pacman, Shaman, Specific Package Issues, Package Creation Discussions, Etc., rather than grouping them with other subjects that are not related.

Anyway, thanks all.

rson451 · 2009-04-07 19:34:51

Shaman is not an official project, so that's a no.

You stated that the bug/misconfiguration is more of an issue with newbies, which is why we have the newbie corner. This forum doesn't really get enough traffic to warrant a different section for every little piece that makes up the distribution.

The testing repo is a bit different, because discussions happen there regarding problems that will eventually plague users that aren't using [testing]. It serves as a good 'heads up' for users who don't subscribe to the arch-dev list.

Package creation can and should take place in the Creating & Building Packages section.

EDIT: this post is piecemeal but I don't feel like reorganizing it to sound better.

Last edited by rson451 (2009-04-07 19:35:57)

Inxsible · 2009-04-07 19:58:30

By arch wiki's count, there are five different wrappers for AUR packages/package management. Xyne has a couple like pacPAN and powerpill, which wrap pacman and the aur as well, with certain flags.

Any user, can suddenly get the urge to create a brand new wrapper for package management (This is encouraged). So, if we have a separate sub-forum for every piece of software out there, the forums will not be as useful, IMO.

As for new users feeling the pinch about being shot down, I would say that's unfair on the Arch community. Most, if not all, users here are very respectful of the new users problems and will politely ask them to search the wiki/google and even point them to resources.

The Newbie Corner is specifically for this purpose where the user asks the question. He can be told that its a mis-configuration on his part, give him a solution and everyone is happy. If it comes down to being a feature request/bug, then the user is expected to file the bug report/feature request higher up the stream -- whether its a software in Arch's purview or otherwise.

Last edited by Inxsible (2009-04-07 19:59:05)

KitchM · 2009-04-08 04:25:11

Inxsible:
Thanks for the info. But 5 wrappers (front-ends) for Pacman? Wow! That's a lot. By the way, where does one find out about them?

Rson451 (Yeah, I liked the movie, too.):
Who sets the standard for what is "official"?

And I may have been wrong about the newbie issue, but by the same token why would anyone expect that a networking problem (and that's just an example) should be brought to the "Newbie Corner" rather than the clearly marked "Networking, Server, and Protection" section? Besides, a Newbie Corner should never be used for stuff like that.

I don't know, guys, but I like Arch, and I want to try and make it easier for more people learn about it. Better organization would help. It is also always important to be very welcoming, and learn from everyone's comments and thoughts simply because they are statistically likely to know more. However, comments such as "if you can't install it without asking questions, please go away or learn to read" or "As for new users feeling the pinch about being shot down, I would say that's unfair on the Arch community" seem to be counter-productive to that effort, IMO.

In the first case, please believe me when I say that there is a hell of a lot of improvement that can be done. In the second, I personally believe it to be wrong to imply that people's personal emotional response is somehow insulting to the Arch community. Surely they have a right to have feelings. Ultimately, we all need to work hard at guaranteeing that those feeling are always good.

fukawi2 · 2009-04-08 05:22:17

KitchM wrote:

However, comments such as "if you can't install it without asking questions, please go away or learn to read"

Remember that Arch isn't aimed at people who are new to Linux. People who are using Linux for the first time and ask questions that:
a) would be expected to be known before trying a distro such as Arch; and
b) can be easily answered bu a quick Google or Wiki search
Are generally the only questions that get that kind of response.

Personally, I think having the limited number of forums keeps things nice and simple, instead of bombarding any new users with a plethora of different options for where to post their question.

Inxsible · 2009-04-08 05:33:33

KitchM wrote:

However, comments such as "if you can't install it without asking questions, please go away or learn to read" or "As for new users feeling the pinch about being shot down, I would say that's unfair on the Arch community" seem to be counter-productive to that effort, IMO.
In the first case, please believe me when I say that there is a hell of a lot of improvement that can be done. In the second, I personally believe it to be wrong to imply that people's personal emotional response is somehow insulting to the Arch community. Surely they have a right to have feelings. Ultimately, we all need to work hard at guaranteeing that those feeling are always good.

I believe the second comment is the one that I used in the post just above yours. I don't see how that is counter-productive. All I was saying was that your implication - that newbies are shot down - is unfair to the Arch community, because most if not all users are very sympathetic towards new users. Yes we do have an occasional post which suggests to google or RTFM, but those are few and far between and like fukawi said...its only for the extremely obvious questions, where the user has demonstrated a lack of will to actually search for answers before posting.

tomk · 2009-04-08 11:57:00

KitchM wrote:

One part of the issue is that it appears to be slightly confusing to figure whether or not something is a bug or just the user's misconfiguration or misuse. The more of a newbie, the more it becomes a worrisome question for the user.

People learn from experience, and if you hang around here a while, you will see users "graduate" from Newbie Corner, to other forum boards, to the bugtracker, etc.

KitchM wrote:

In fact, I would make a page where the forums, wiki's, bug tracking and other resources comes together, with simple instructions about which to use when.

Please do. I don't see the need for it myself, so I'm having trouble imagining what it would look like. If you do it, you can submit it as a feature request.

KitchM wrote:

We need the lowest common denominator.

As fukawi2 mentioned, the Arch LCD is considerably higher than the LCD of the wider Linux user base.

KitchM wrote:

Who sets the standard for what is "official"?

The Arch developer team. We are, of course, always open to new ideas from the community.

KitchM wrote:

I don't know, guys, but I like Arch, and I want to try and make it easier for more people learn about it. Better organization would help.
<snip>
please believe me when I say that there is a hell of a lot of improvement that can be done.

As suggested above, please submit your ideas for improving organisation etc as feature requests. If you can include working examples, patches, etc, that would be even better. Although there is no guarantee that any particular request will be acted on, a well-written patch is always more interesting than a "we should do this/that/other" post.

The code for the Arch website and all other Arch-specific development is available from our git repo at projects.archlinux.org.

crouse · 2009-04-08 13:37:43

KitchM wrote:

In fact, I would make a page where the forums, wiki's, bug tracking and other resources comes together, with simple instructions about which to use when. My experience is that we often assume too much when it comes to usability for everyone. We need the lowest common denominator.

First of all, welcome to Arch Linux
You appear very enthusiastic which is great. I would second tomk's suggestions. Feel free to make a page in the wiki pulling all of those things together that you want, maybe others will use it, you never know until you try.

Keep in mind, most people here don't believe Arch Linux is a distro for newbies (neither do I for that matter). So your suggestions of everyone "assuming to much" and wanting to create for the "lowest common denominator" will most likely fall on deaf ears. People here EXPECT others to do some research on their own, and rightly so. There is however the newbie forum, and very seldom do people get flamed for asking things there, no matter what the questions. In fact, you'll find this is one of the most helpful places you'll ever visit

I agree 100% with fukawi2

Remember that Arch isn't aimed at people who are new to Linux. People who are using Linux for the first time and ask questions that:
a) would be expected to be known before trying a distro such as Arch; and
b) can be easily answered bu a quick Google or Wiki search
Are generally the only questions that get that kind of response.
Personally, I think having the limited number of forums keeps things nice and simple, instead of bombarding any new users with a plethora of different options for where to post their question.

You will find the KISS philosophy permeates this distro, and for the record, that's a GOOD THING !

Arch Linux

#1 2009-03-21 01:14:25

General Repo Forum

#2 2009-03-21 01:19:59

Re: General Repo Forum

#3 2009-03-21 01:31:24

Re: General Repo Forum

#4 2009-04-07 18:47:56

Re: General Repo Forum

#5 2009-04-07 19:34:51

Re: General Repo Forum

#6 2009-04-07 19:58:30

Re: General Repo Forum

#7 2009-04-08 04:25:11

Re: General Repo Forum

#8 2009-04-08 05:22:17

Re: General Repo Forum

#9 2009-04-08 05:33:33

Re: General Repo Forum

#10 2009-04-08 11:57:00

Re: General Repo Forum

#11 2009-04-08 13:37:43

Re: General Repo Forum

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