Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

stefanwilkens · 2010-09-10 14:54:46

With the changes in xorg and the high success rate of udev / evdev, might it be wise to start overhauling wiki pages such as:

* Beginner's guide
* evdev
* Synaptics (edit, was updated 13/09/2010)
* nvidia
* ATI
* evdev
...

Many of these articles seem to be in an inbetween state, still showing modification methods involving xorg.conf but are covered in {{note|}} boxes saying these methods are now deprecated in favor of udev /evdev. I set out today to start updating the beginner's guide's Xorg section, but obviously this is an issue that arises in many wiki articles.

Can we, as a community, say it's time to refresh the wiki pages and use evdev / udev as a base go-to for our articles?

A good example is the Synaptics article. Its installation section mentions:

Edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf or /etc/xorg.conf as root and add InputDevice "SynapticsTouchpad" "SendCoreEvents" to the ServerLayout:

However, a bit down we read:

HAL policy (deprecated in favor of udev, /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-synaptics.conf)
With hotplugging (enabled by default) and HAL installed and running, your Synaptics should work "out-of-the-box".
If it doesn't or you want to tweak the configuration, you will need to edit the appropriate HAL policy file (XML format). Note that in this case.

It then goes on to explain the HAL policy method. Eventually, we read:

udev
Same as HAL, but settings go in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-synaptics.conf instead of /etc/hal/fdi/policy/11-x11-synaptics.fdi. See [url]http://andreascarpino.it/2010/04/xorg-1-8-synaptics-touchpad-configuration/[/url].

To summarize:
It mentions the old, deprecated xorg.conf method.
It mentions this is deprecated.
It mentions this should work fine with input hotplugging
It mentions the HAL policy approach
It mentions the HAL method is deprecated
It goes on to mention xorg.conf.d (evdev) and then links to an offsite website explaining the current proper way to handle this.

Now I use arch on 2 systems, a both fairly new and up to date. I've had 0 issues using xorg 1.8 without HAL or xorg.conf and would quite like to keep our wiki up to date with these new developements in a proper way. That is to say, not as a notebox holding offsite links.

Is it time for such changes?

Last edited by stefanwilkens (2010-09-14 08:45:51)

Inxsible · 2010-09-10 14:59:58

That's funny !!

I was thinking the exact same thing. A new user was confused about it and I tried to help him and was thinking that we need to overhaul the Xorg part of the Beginner's Guide.

Skripka · 2010-09-10 15:04:03

Inxsible wrote:

That's funny !!
I was thinking the exact same thing. A new user was confused about it and I tried to help him and was thinking that we need to overhaul the Xorg part of the Beginner's Guide.

Don't you use a dual-head ATi setup?

There basically isn't an dual-head for ATi section on the Xorg wiki page. I already fixed up the Nvidia section somewhat.

Inxsible · 2010-09-10 15:06:54

Yes I do use a dual heal ATI setup -- but with the open source ati drivers not the catalyst.

Back on topic: we definitely need to update the Xorg section of the Beginner's Guide. I might be able to add some input in there. These days its simpler because you just install Xorg and mesa and you are done. We can have separate sections for people who want to use nvidia and or ati proprietary drivers.

I would say that by default -- lets make the new users NOT use the xorg.conf file. So no more of the Xorg -configure.

We can probably put in a note there saying if things don't work, then refer another page (where we would ask them to use an xorg.conf)

I might hack the Xorg section of the BG and see what I come up with.

stefanwilkens · 2010-09-10 15:30:41

Inxsible wrote:

I would say that by default -- lets make the new users NOT use the xorg.conf file. So no more of the Xorg -configure.
We can probably put in a note there saying if things don't work, then refer another page (where we would ask them to use an xorg.conf)
I might hack the Xorg section of the BG and see what I come up with.

That was what I had in mind as well, there are some things that prevented me from doing so though:
* Does catalyst function properly without xorg.conf? (and subsequently, how up to date is the ATI article )
* nvidia apparently added xorg 1.8 support to their nvidia-179xx module, but the BG still mentions it lacks support. I assume it's out of date?
* community thoughts on overhauling.

This also means that many other articles will have to be rewritten for the sake of consistency.

I'll have a look at updating synaptics if you have a look at bg?

Inxsible · 2010-09-10 16:10:15

I am also thinking about whacking the Xorg section, Nvidia section and the ATI section. They seem too long and too convoluted because not every user needs to do this. Only users of particular graphics cards.

Instead, we should just put in links to the respective pages. That way the BG stays concise and only users who want to install nvidia, need to worry about it. Same for ATI users. On those pages, they can choose whether they want to use the open source drivers or the proprietary.

so basically

Xorg: Since xorg 18, xorg.conf is not required blah blah blah (some info about Xorg).
Please refer to [link]Xorg[/link] to install and configure X

Nvidia:
            If you use a NVidia card, please refer to [wikiLink]NVidia[/wikiLink] to install and configure your NVidia drivers
ATI: 
            If you use an ATI card, please refer to [wikiLink]ATI[/wikiLink] to install and configure your ATIdrivers

Thoughts?

stefanwilkens · 2010-09-10 16:14:49

that has also been suggested in the discussion page of the BG, arguments against it are that the BG should be a complete and narrative guide for new users.. guiding them through the installation.

Sending them off to other articles that were not created with "newbies" as a target audience, or hold far more information than required for a first installation, may be countereffective for newbies?

Inxsible · 2010-09-10 16:17:38

Hmm I tend to think otherwise. Too much information (especially if its not required) can be an overload to many newbies. Many might think that its an overly complex and long procedure, when it really isn't.

Why would a newbie bother about ATI drivers, if he has NVidia graphics. A link to the appropriate page makes sense. Everyone know to visit a link that is focussed on the drivers that they want to install.

stefanwilkens · 2010-09-10 18:43:09

don't get me wrong, I'm all for simplicity. I just think that a new user would be better helped with one complete document.

you could link to nvidia, something that is already done with ati's catalyst installation, but then you would have to overhaul the nvidia page before actually using it linked in the BG. It's not in a proper state at the moment.

Last edited by stefanwilkens (2010-09-10 18:44:25)

KimTjik · 2010-09-10 19:07:47

You mention udev and HAL - I don't refer to the beginner's guide - which isn't that easy either to understand and configure relying on the Wiki. I need to learn more about udev myself, but when giving it some time I found the information to be very fragmented. What I mean is: either you already understand the concept and hence can make good use of the suggestions, or you could feel lost not knowing what pieces you need to make it work (e g that how I feel, but when I finally find information written for folks not familiar with udev I'll see what can be done about it).

I'm sorry for this being a bit off-topic, even though somewhat related.

stqn · 2010-09-10 19:14:00

When I installed Arch, I first had to print the whole Beginner's Guide in order to have some documentation while installing. If in the middle of it there had been a link to another page that I had to read in order to make Arch work, I would have been... forced to reboot into Windows, or something.

dobbs · 2010-09-10 21:35:40

It's supposed to be a Beginner's Guide. It's already 70 pages long. Does it need more pages?? As a beginner myself, I vote to keep it as simple as possible... :-)
No disrespect intended, merely a statement....:-)

ngoonee · 2010-09-11 01:11:33

stqn wrote:

When I installed Arch, I first had to print the whole Beginner's Guide in order to have some documentation while installing. If in the middle of it there had been a link to another page that I had to read in order to make Arch work, I would have been... forced to reboot into Windows, or something.

Valid point, but you should realize that even if the user has an nvidia/ati card, vesa would still work so the user would still be able to get things set up to the point that they're in a DE and connected to a network (and can open the wiki themselves).

Inxsible · 2010-09-11 01:16:11

We should definitely remove the sections for "Configuring X" There are 3 sections related to this and since 1.8, they are irrelevant. We should default to NOT using xorg.conf.

Also, you have to assume sane defaults for certain things. For eg. For sound, we assume that people will install ALSA and we don't explain how to install pulse audio or OSS in the BG. If users want to do it, then they can, but we cannot explain everything in 1 document.

I think the proprietary video drivers fall under the same category. We would use the open source -- then after installation the users can choose to change them

stqn · 2010-09-11 10:06:37

For what it's worth, it's fine by me: I want to use ALSA (it works perfectly), I didn't have to configure Xorg at all to make it work, and the proprietary ATI driver doesn't support my Radeon .

stefanwilkens · 2010-09-11 10:27:11

Inxsible wrote:

We should definitely remove the sections for "Configuring X" There are 3 sections related to this and since 1.8, they are irrelevant. We should default to NOT using xorg.conf.
Also, you have to assume sane defaults for certain things. For eg. For sound, we assume that people will install ALSA and we don't explain how to install pulse audio or OSS in the BG. If users want to do it, then they can, but we cannot explain everything in 1 document.
I think the proprietary video drivers fall under the same category. We would use the open source -- then after installation the users can choose to change them

aggreed, as long as there is clear mention that the proprietary drivers offer other (better) features and may be a better choise when users want to do 3d gaming or desktop compositing.

stefanwilkens · 2010-09-11 12:26:16

another wildly important article in need of editing:
http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Evdev

dcc24 · 2010-09-11 13:06:01

As for binary drivers, they need xorg.conf to be present, the server doesn't autoload proprietary drivers.

anonymous_user · 2010-09-11 13:23:16

At least for Nvidia, installing nvidia-utils package supplies 20-nvidia.conf. For a simple one monitor setup it suffices.

lucak3 · 2010-09-11 15:10:37

Why not keep the Configure X section and simplify it to just some lines?
Just say what packages to install with pacman and indicate wiki pages for specific troubleshooting and configurations

stefanwilkens · 2010-09-11 15:37:16

dcc24 wrote:

As for binary drivers, they need xorg.conf to be present, the server doesn't autoload proprietary drivers.

this is not correct. you do not need xorg.conf with nvidia's binary driver, that is the whole point we're trying to bring across. We want to update the wiki pages to move away from outdated / deprecated configuration methods and move to udev

only /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/20-nvidia.conf is required, wich is supplied by the nvidia package.

lucak3 wrote:

Why not keep the Configure X section and simplify it to just some lines?
Just say what packages to install with pacman and indicate wiki pages for specific troubleshooting and configurations

I believe that is what is planned, though some minor configuration (to at least achieve a successful desktop environment) should be included in the BG.

Last edited by stefanwilkens (2010-09-11 15:39:40)

codycarey · 2010-09-11 20:00:56

stefanwilkens wrote:

that has also been suggested in the discussion page of the BG, arguments against it are that the BG should be a complete and narrative guide for new users.. guiding them through the installation.
Sending them off to other articles that were not created with "newbies" as a target audience, or hold far more information than required for a first installation, may be countereffective for newbies?

Is it possible to 'include' a section of another wiki article? So say any time someone loads up the BG the wiki populates the ATI/Nvidia sections from basic configuration portions of their respective articles?

Arch Linux

#1 2010-09-10 14:54:46

Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

#2 2010-09-10 14:59:58

Re: Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

#3 2010-09-10 15:04:03

Re: Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

#4 2010-09-10 15:06:54

Re: Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

#5 2010-09-10 15:30:41

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#6 2010-09-10 16:10:15

Re: Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

#7 2010-09-10 16:14:49

Re: Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

#8 2010-09-10 16:17:38

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#9 2010-09-10 18:43:09

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#10 2010-09-10 19:07:47

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#11 2010-09-10 19:14:00

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#12 2010-09-10 21:35:40

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#13 2010-09-11 01:11:33

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Re: Wiki overhaul due to xorg changes?

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