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#51 2005-04-21 22:46:15

Kern
Member
From: UK
Registered: 2005-02-09
Posts: 460

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

its lamentable that some people, including myself, dont read instructions in whatever format, until at least one pass and fail, has been made.

Therefore <agreeing with magnum> Obvious/ Intuitive is the way to go for sure. From what ive seen of switching consoles mid install, the newb says, "Virtual console, whats a console ?"

Intuitive doesn't necessarily mean GUI installer though. the critical bit for me as a newb, Redhat 5.blob , was when it said, Now you need to Partition the disk, do you want to use Disk Druid, or Fdisk.?
Gulp! whats that funny "/" thing.  Root ? erm Boot ? erm erm.
Failed.
You can only take intuition so far. there must either be some entry level of technical knowledge, or a dependence that the Coder for the installer, can pre guess what you need and do it automatically.

Respect to Cybertron for at least trying to address the issue, and apologies from me for being critical of the way he chose to attempt it.

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#52 2005-04-22 10:04:03

CyberTron
Member
From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

Hi!

I must give a comment:

well, I have actually begin looking at archie,!!

And I will probably contribute to that project because it's goals are similar to mine...

So Perhaps it won't be a fancy gui - installer, buut it will be easier to install Archie than the normal installer, and perhaps more informative...
but the one who lives will see...I am right now, looking through the code for Archie trying to understand how it is made up..

we will see if this is something that might satisfy as much people as possible in this community..


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
Enlightenment 17

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#53 2005-04-22 22:01:23

z4ziggy
Member
From: Israel
Registered: 2004-03-29
Posts: 573
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

iphitus is working on a "fancy" gui hd-installer for Archie, so im guessing you'll be quite happy with that wink

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#54 2005-04-23 02:25:52

sarah31
Member
From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

CyberTron wrote:

Hi all!

I feel that it is time for me to speak up and tell you all how this is going, and what has happened...

First of all, I would like to say thanks to everyone who supports me and this project...

second I would like to point out that I am in no way trying to take away the pride of this community nor the pride of the developers for Arch.

third: I think that the attitude in these forums has to change!! it is way to condescending atleast compared to Gentoo / Slack forums.!

Many of you are very very condescending to the new Arch:(ers)...and when they are asking for help they get only stupid and bad responses...why?


As for the project, right now I am looking into the installer and trying to figure out how to make things easier without making it too easy...i am also looking alot at the Frugalware project...which are looking promising..

/CyberTron

1. you have all right to fork arch but dumbing it down is going to be a long hard process and in the meantime who maintains your repos? are you just "stealing" the packages from th regular arch repos?

2. have you even asked yourself the key question: Will a dumbed down arch "sell" or am I just making a whole lot of work to maintain a set of helping apps for myself? Have you even bothered to get others who may be interested in your project to test what you have done?

3. people, especially people like me, will ALWAYS treat newcomers who want to dumb arch down like trash. say that the general attitude of veteran archers is to be condescending is a load. if you even bother to take a look at the threads that get out of control it is usually when a newcomer takes the time to crap all over the developers and community for their own shortcomings. I realize that arch and linux can be difficult to learn but newcomers often get really frustrated then carry that over to these forums and they get very cranky when things don't go exactly as they want/expect.

every forum member should pick and choose their words carefully in any forum. it is always most effective to be polite and respectful instead of being a cocky, condescending, immature, etc. As much as veterans like me stoop to the same level it is only when we feel like the poster is intentionally attempting to get under their skin instead of honestly trying to get to the root of the issue.

granted there are topic that will ALWAYS be hot button issues and ANYONE trying to dumb down arch s EXACTLY one of those topics. Don't expect my support for such a project. Unless you can dumb it down to the level that Apple has with OS X then you will likely have a VERY tough road. Even then dumbing ANY OS down is just wrong imo.

In the end you may want to actually get more people to your cause because you are going it alone and you will lose interest. You will need a team and you will need concrete goals/deadlines/etc.

PS this is the second time i have seen someone mention that the gentoo forum is more respectful. I laugh at that. They are as big a bunch of arseholes as this forum's members are. All forums look only as good as you care to see them. EVERY SINGLE FORUM HAS THEIR OWN DARK ELEMENT you can either be over taken by it or ignore it.


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#55 2005-04-23 03:09:42

CyberTron
Member
From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

I just wonder, why do you people (sarah31) always have the best ego in the world?

I am by NO MEANS!!! offending anyone with a new distro am I?   DO I force YOU to use it? of course not!!

You can laugh at the arseholes in the Gentoo forums, and still those forums are much more pleasant to be in...and it doesn't have to be that way in Arch, so why are you people so mad at everyone?

Ok if a newbie asks a question like "How to find the right module for *some network*" and that quuestion have been up a million times...so what?! If you HATE that newbie (or newbies) just ignore the question and if you feel that it is going to ruin your whole ARCH theori then just stop reading those forumposts that you think are stupid!

It makes me sick of seeing how people are treated, it feels to me that man people here are like 13 years old or something..

And Sarah31 , If YOU READ THE POST ABOVE YOURS you might have noticed that I am probably going to CONTRIBUTE to ARCHIE!


It is very inmature.

AND THIS THREAD IS NOT MEANT FOR RANTING!!

I was simply telling that I were thinking in doing a distro, similiar to arch with a more newbie friendly aspect...this is a way for me to contribute to the community (for the ones in need of help) and also a way for me to learn how a Linux dist is built up.
If you don't like it , don't use it...it is probably NOT going to be used by you anyway since I doubt you are not a complete newbie, even if you acts like a  jerk.

Of course anyone has the right to an opinion but maybe sometimes you should keep it to yourself..

And SARAH31, I don't expect your support, and I don't expect you to gain anything from a new distro, I also don't disrespect Judd or the developers who are doing a great job!

And btw, IF YOU CARED ENOUGH to read the post above yours you would notice that I am probably going to contribute to the live-cd project ARCHIE which is going to have a friendlier interface...but I guess you look down to  that project as well don't you?


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
Enlightenment 17

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#56 2005-04-23 04:24:47

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

CyberTron, take a chill pill.

I see much less open flaming than there used to be. Things appear mostly civil again, and I see people being more helpful every day. I can't honestly believe the gentoo forums are nicer, but if that is the case for you, then wonderful. big_smile
I might have rose colored glasses, but it seems some people around here have brown ones. Take a couple of days break from the internet or something once in a while. Get back some lost perspective.
tongue


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#57 2005-04-23 04:29:17

CyberTron
Member
From: Gotland ,Sweden
Registered: 2005-03-17
Posts: 645
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

well cactus, I didn't start it...but I can atleast do my best to end it

are there any possibility to lock this thread?  because I have gotten the answers I was looking for in the beginning...and I believe what was needed to be said has been said...and the opinions differ...but they always do...

I hope that maybe in a perfect world we can all be friends and happy, we are after all a part of the Linux community big_smile

see ya


http://www.linuxportalen.com  -> Linux Help portal for Linux and ArchLinux (in swedish)

Dell Inspiron 8500
Kernel 2.6.14-archck1  (selfcompiled)
Enlightenment 17

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#58 2005-04-23 06:11:55

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

CyberTron wrote:

are there any possibility to lock this thread?

Sure thing.  8)


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#59 2005-04-26 02:24:43

dtw
Forum Fellow
From: UK
Registered: 2004-08-03
Posts: 4,431
Website

Re: Making an Arch Linux for newbies ?!!

[Abuse of mod priviledges]

I just wanted to respond to magnum_opus on points 1 and 2:

1) Ah, fair point
2) Very fair also - I wasn't trying to have a dig at nano (or gentoo) - but gentoo has "lost points" in the past for requiring users to use nano - i think the best answer is to have a choice of editor in the process - with nano maybe as a good default choice

just wanted to clarify smile

[/Abuse of mod priviledges]

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