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#1 2011-07-22 23:24:14

android
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2003-04-18
Posts: 160

topic closing

It seems there is an urgent need on the part of mods to close topics. As one example:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=88018

The post at the bottom of this thread was quite useful to me in pointing out that AGP also had to be built into the kernel.

What is the point of closing this thread?

From my perspective as a user, this action makes me feel like some overlord is censoring inter-user communications (no, not you phrakture 8-)

I would like to point out this aspect of the posting rules (so handily provided through sigline):

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette#Life_is_a_Two-way_Street

One person's (mods) necro-bumping may be another person's (users) valuable piece of debug information.

Perhaps something is old news to a person with >5000 posts, but may still be an open and active topic for someone just starting to try to solve the problem.

Please, try to think about that Two-way_Street rule from the perspective of the traffic going the other way: sometimes an issue comes up for another person months after the initial posting. The issue is still current for the person having it, and sometimes new data comes to light on the same old topic.

Let those necro-bumpers be 8-)

After 30 years in engineering decision making (and 8 years of running arch everyday) I've learned to respect the lazy programmer, i.e.:

Unless there is a compelling reason to take action, the best thing to do is nothing (aka KISS)

I know all the mods work hard and dedicate a huge amount of their personal time to arch.

A sincere THANK YOU to all the mods, devs, TUs and other distro helpers!!!!

Please, remember the lowly user trying to overcome their own little problem that no one else cares about (often under time and learning curve pressure)

Thanks again for everyone's contributions to arch!

android

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#2 2011-07-22 23:35:18

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: topic closing

The current kernel ships w/o the Arch logo.
https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/24654

Last edited by karol (2011-07-22 23:38:31)

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#3 2011-07-22 23:38:24

Inxsible
Forum Fellow
From: Chicago
Registered: 2008-06-09
Posts: 9,183

Re: topic closing

android wrote:

What is the point of closing this thread?

A couple of reasons:
   1) Thread was more than a year and a half old
   2) It wasn't even completely related since the thread started had issues with an intel card, whereas the new post was a radeon related.

android wrote:

I would like to point out this aspect of the posting rules (so handily provided through sigline):

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fo … way_Street

I see what you did there. If you actually read the section that you link to, it has nothing to do with what you are pointing out. Rather its asking the help seekers to post proper information. You are simply changing the meaning to the way you like it.

Also from the very same handily provided link to the posting rules, you seem to have forgotten to read these two sub-sections:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fo … Bumping.27

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Fo … _The_Staff


Forum Rules

There's no such thing as a stupid question, but there sure are a lot of inquisitive idiots !

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#4 2011-07-22 23:45:25

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: topic closing

OP says he does respect the staff:

android wrote:

I know all the mods work hard and dedicate a huge amount of their personal time to arch.

A sincere THANK YOU to all the mods, devs, TUs and other distro helpers!!!!


Arch moves pretty fast and things change quite a bit every couple months so necrobumping is generally discouraged.

If you have a problem with something a mod did or wrote, there's the 'Report' button. Often a quick e-mail conversation is all that is needed to resolve the issue.

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#5 2011-07-22 23:47:53

Inxsible
Forum Fellow
From: Chicago
Registered: 2008-06-09
Posts: 9,183

Re: topic closing

karol wrote:

OP says he does respect the staff:

About that I have no doubt.

The reason I linked it was because it says :

If you feel that an egregious oversight has been made, do NOT post complaints in forum threads - they will be quickly closed. Alternatively, use the forum report function, email a member of the moderator group, or email forum@archlinux.org to contact the forum admins.


Forum Rules

There's no such thing as a stupid question, but there sure are a lot of inquisitive idiots !

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#6 2011-07-23 00:19:19

android
Member
From: San Diego
Registered: 2003-04-18
Posts: 160

Re: topic closing

Thank you both for your replies.

I don't feel like anyone (Inxsible in this case) did anything wrong, or even made

an egregious oversight

I'm just trying to provide a users perspective on what constitutes "necro".

In running arch for as long as I have (forum user id 221) I am totally (and sometimes painfully) aware of the rate of change at arch.

While the release may roll on, I often don't upgrade certain machines for many months, or even years. Depending on the role the machine plays, stability is often way more important than running the very latest upstream.

So when i do upgrade a server, or other intranet appliance, I may face issues that first surfaced months prior. As I deal with it, new data or aspects may come to light that follow in the vein of the old thread.

This is just "my usage model", but given the framework nature of the arch distro, many different users apply it into many different situations. (such as embedded) this gives rise to the fact that there isn't really one "arch way" but really many many different "arch ways".

All I'm saying is: Please have some empathy for those that aren't on the boards or "pacman -Syu"ing every day. We're still arch users and still try to contribute in the ways we are able.

Regarding the "Report function" pointed out above by Inxsible: I guess I had an impression that the "Report" had some negative connotation. In the future I'll use this mechanism before publicly posting.

I used to feel the same way about "Flag as Out of Date" and have come to think it more as a heads up to the maintainer (although some maintainers still get testy when you flag their baby) So I guess this is why I had the negative impression of the "report" function.

I hope I've communicated that I don't really have a complaint, with Inxsible or the forums, I'm just trying to increase sensitivity to some users not being as "with it" in a daily (or monthly) way as the mods and other uber regulars. I can see that a report or PM could have been a better way to discuss this, I'll do better next time.

Thanks again to each of you!

android

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#7 2011-07-23 01:17:47

Xyne
Administrator/PM
Registered: 2008-08-03
Posts: 6,963
Website

Re: topic closing

I've argued for necrobumping before. The argument basically went like this:

1) old threads are the ones most likely to show up when searching for something because they have been indexed for ages, and they are kept around for that very reason
2) adding relevant information to the thread, no matter how old the thread is, will help anyone who finds it (see [1])
3) telling someone who posts relevant information not to necrobump discourages people from contributing and makes it harder for others to find that information

This mostly applies to old threads that deal with particular issues, i.e. ones that are not "timeless". Also, bumping those with questions should be discouraged.


My Arch Linux StuffForum EtiquetteCommunity Ethos - Arch is not for everyone

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#8 2011-07-23 01:29:57

jasonwryan
Anarchist
From: .nz
Registered: 2009-05-09
Posts: 30,424
Website

Re: topic closing

Xyne wrote:

2) adding relevant information to the thread, no matter how old the thread is, will help anyone who finds it (see [1])

If it is adding information, within the bounds of a rolling release, yes.

The mod team do exercize discretion and try to ensure that threads aren't closed just because they have been bumped, however, from time to time all of us make mistakes. Whenever a member of the community requests that a thread be re-opened, it is given due consideration and in the few cases I have seen is so.

The vast majority of necrobumps are a different story--and distressingly similar. Someone googles their issue, finds a thread that may be related (even if it is clearly marked solved) and tacks on their question. Locking these threads is an attempt to keep the boards clean and relevant for the bulk of the community.


Arch + dwm   •   Mercurial repos  •   Surfraw

Registered Linux User #482438

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#9 2011-07-23 05:42:03

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 19,740

Re: topic closing

Okay,

As yet another mod, allow me my two cents.  In addition to what has been said, the moderator team try to be consistent in our approach to the board and act as a team.  When it comes to adding to old threads, I tend to let it slide if,  (1) it is clear that things related to the thread have not changed, (2) The original poster(s) are still active on the forums, and (3) The original poster has not marked the problem as having been solved.

Otherwise, I prefer members start new threads stating their situation and linking from the old thread.  I would assert that the starting a new thread, in lieu of adding to an old thread, would be much more appreciated.


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
Sometimes it is the people no one can imagine anything of who do the things no one can imagine. -- Alan Turing
---
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#10 2011-07-23 08:49:52

litemotiv
Forum Fellow
Registered: 2008-08-01
Posts: 5,026

Re: topic closing

Xyne wrote:

1) old threads are the ones most likely to show up when searching for something because they have been indexed for ages, and they are kept around for that very reason

I am not sure this is true, BBS threads get indexed almost instantly these days (often within 30-60 minutes) and search is really based on relevance rather than age.


ᶘ ᵒᴥᵒᶅ

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#11 2011-07-28 01:05:15

Xyne
Administrator/PM
Registered: 2008-08-03
Posts: 6,963
Website

Re: topic closing

litemotiv wrote:
Xyne wrote:

1) old threads are the ones most likely to show up when searching for something because they have been indexed for ages, and they are kept around for that very reason

I am not sure this is true, BBS threads get indexed almost instantly these days (often within 30-60 minutes) and search is really based on relevance rather than age.

I have to agree because I just found a thread that was posted today while searching for something. Still, many old thread come up when searching.


My Arch Linux StuffForum EtiquetteCommunity Ethos - Arch is not for everyone

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#12 2011-07-28 15:41:01

ANOKNUSA
Member
Registered: 2010-10-22
Posts: 2,141

Re: topic closing

Just a standard user here, throwing in a little comment.  An example of a helpful, necro-bumped thread I found a couple months back that was not closed, presumably because the bumping post directly applied to the topic at hand and provided a suitable work-around to a common conundrum:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=45183

Having visited these forums ~2 times a day since I first signed up, I've seen quite a few necro-bumps closed, and most of them don't meet the criteria of the above post. They tend to be unrelated--or only loosely related--to the issue at hand, or completely pointless ("Thank for the solution/explanation, person who posted two years ago and may not have been back here since!").  Leaving such threads open to clog up the "New Post" list over time just eats up the meager bandwidth Arch has to deal with and wastes everyone's time.  Also, I believe the mods make a distinction between "Closed" and "Closed: Marked for deletion."  It's the difference between useless info, and info that's still useful and unlikely to change. Most science texts won't contain any info on the phlogiston hypothesis, while an encyclopedia may keep it around for posterity, but won't allow new info to be added on it.  A specious analogy, I know; I just woke up, so... tongue

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#13 2011-07-29 02:00:11

ngoonee
Forum Fellow
From: Between Thailand and Singapore
Registered: 2009-03-17
Posts: 7,354

Re: topic closing

ANOKNUSA wrote:

<snip>
Also, I believe the mods make a distinction between "Closed" and "Closed: Marked for deletion."
</snip>

To clarify, topics which are "closed' still exist and are searchable, they just can't be posted in anymore. Topics which are moved to the 'Dustbin' sub-forum are marked for deletion and may be deleted in a week, 2 weeks, a month, or whenever a mod decides to clean up there.

If you believe a certain thread should not have been closed, please use the report button to let a mod know.


Allan-Volunteer on the (topic being discussed) mailn lists. You never get the people who matters attention on the forums.
jasonwryan-Installing Arch is a measure of your literacy. Maintaining Arch is a measure of your diligence. Contributing to Arch is a measure of your competence.
Griemak-Bleeding edge, not bleeding flat. Edge denotes falls will occur from time to time. Bring your own parachute.

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#14 2011-07-29 08:23:02

ewaller
Administrator
From: Pasadena, CA
Registered: 2009-07-13
Posts: 19,740

Re: topic closing

ANOKNUSA, you hit the nail on the head.  That post describes my approach exactly.  And kudos to the technical name for the theory of elemental heat.  Outside of my thermodynamics classes, I did not think anyone else knew the word phlogiston smile


Nothing is too wonderful to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature -- Michael Faraday
Sometimes it is the people no one can imagine anything of who do the things no one can imagine. -- Alan Turing
---
How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

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#15 2011-07-29 08:38:56

karol
Archivist
Registered: 2009-05-06
Posts: 25,440

Re: topic closing

ewaller wrote:

And kudos to the technical name for the theory of elemental heat.  Outside of my thermodynamics classes, I did not think anyone else knew the word phlogiston smile

I know it from a history (of science) book where I was reading about Lavoisier ;P
But I had to look the word 'specious' up.


Instead of necrobumping, you can start a new thread and post links to some old-and-maybe-related ones. It shows
1. you've done some research
and
2. you're aware of the forum rules prohibiting necrobumping.

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