configuring console

barney · 2024-01-31 20:05:28

Configuring console is not documented well. I know about vconsole.conf but the documentation is terrible.
What I want is configuring two keyboard layouts, us and mk, and some toggle key. Also to set some Unicode font with Cyrillic support. For X this can be done in config file in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/
In Debian there is a file /etc/default/keyboard where you can use all options from X, but it affects the virtual consoles too. I want something like that in Arch. In vconsole.conf you can load two keyboard layouts but there is no option for toggle key. Even the man page for loadkeys dos not explain how to change keyboard layout.
I don't know which console font support Cyrillic and how to set it in vconsole.conf, simply because it is not well documented.
How to find solution for this problem?

seth · 2024-01-31 20:35:34

I know about vconsole.conf but the documentation is terrible.

What about
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Linux_ … figuration
and
https://man.archlinux.org/man/core/syst … .conf.5.en
is "terrible"? Too long sentences or too fancy words?

What I want is configuring two keyboard layouts, us and mk, and some toggle key.

That's not a thing.

Also to set some Unicode font with Cyrillic support

Fonts are explained in https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Linux_console#Fonts

In Debian there is a file /etc/default/keyboard where you can use all options from X, but it affects the virtual consoles too

And completely falls on its nose itr.
Debian tries to infer X11 and console config from a single config and that has severe limitations.
vconsole.conf isn't an alternative, it's a lower level to the debian config file.

Even the man page for loadkeys dos not explain how to change keyboard layout.

Yes it does

I don't know which console font support Cyrillic and how to set it in vconsole.conf, simply because it is not well documented.

I rather think it's because you can't read: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Linux_ … ry_changes

Maybe stick with ubuntu.

barney · 2024-01-31 21:02:15

seth wrote:

I know about vconsole.conf but the documentation is terrible.
What about
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Linux_ … figuration
and
https://man.archlinux.org/man/core/syst … .conf.5.en
is "terrible"? Too long sentences or too fancy words?

There is no explanation for toggle key. I can type loadkeys mk, (or put appropriate line in vconsole.conf) but after that I cannot type my password or type the loadkeys again to load keyboard with us keys. In vconsole.conf I can put KEYMAP_TOGGLE=mk, but here is no explanation how to change between layouts. There must be a way to change the keyboard layout in console or I will be stuck with mk keyboard and don't be able to type normal commands.

What I want is configuring two keyboard layouts, us and mk, and some toggle key.

That's not a thing.

What do you mean by "That's not a thing"?

Also to set some Unicode font with Cyrillic support

Fonts are explained in https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Linux_console#Fonts

In Debian there is a file /etc/default/keyboard where you can use all options from X, but it affects the virtual consoles too

And completely falls on its nose itr.
Debian tries to infer X11 and console config from a single config and that has severe limitations.
vconsole.conf isn't an alternative, it's a lower level to the debian config file.

Maybe it has limitation but you can specify toggle key.

Even the man page for loadkeys dos not explain how to change keyboard layout.

Yes it does

my fault, change and then get back to previous layout.

I don't know which console font support Cyrillic and how to set it in vconsole.conf, simply because it is not well documented.

I rather think it's because you can't read: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Linux_ … ry_changes

I have figured out, somehow.

Maybe stick with ubuntu.

I have newer used Ubuntu, before Arch I have used Debian and Arch misses one thing: how to sign out of three module with MOK key. Debian have patches for that, but in vanilla kernel it is not supported and because of that it is not supported in Arch Linux. And yes I miss the toggle key in console or I don't know how to read the Arch manuals and don't know how to setup it.

seth · 2024-01-31 21:15:27

There is no explanation for toggle key.
What do you mean by "That's not a thing"?

There is no toggle key.

Maybe it has limitation but you can specify toggle key.

On X11.
For the console you'd have to setup some shortcut daemon to run loadkeys for you
In case you're confused by https://man.archlinux.org/man/vconsole.conf.5#OPTIONS "KEYMAP_TOGGLE", see https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 8#p2027268

reddit money quote wrote:

The Greek keymap has Shift+Alt and “the Win 95 keys” (the Super/Meta keys) as a “Greek_Lock”, so you can type Greek symbols with those keys even though your main keymap is English UK. But that’s only if the English UK keymap doesn’t have those Shift+Alt or Meta keys assigned to something else.

You need this somehow in your very specific second layout. It's *not* a system to toggle between layouts.
The second layout becomes part of the overall layout and *it* implements a lock that alters the key behavior.

Edit: dug up https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=247004 itr - bit too late to answer him, though.
Edit: assuming you're russian, https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 8#p1516318

Last edited by seth (2024-01-31 21:18:21)

barney · 2024-01-31 22:04:43

On X11.
For the console you'd have to setup some shortcut daemon to run loadkeys for you

Now you are giving the right answer.

in case you're confused by..

I am confused. I don't know the underlying processes that are happening with loadkeys. I need to read more.

assuming you're russian

No, I am not russian, but that post will be helpful. Now I need some time to read all the links that you have posted.

barney · 2024-02-01 05:41:16

I have read the links you have posted. The things are bit clearer now.

For the console you'd have to setup some shortcut daemon to run loadkeys for you.

You can do that if you want to have only one loaded keyboard layout (not augmented) in the kernel (I have tried loadkeys, but without sudo it is not loading the keyboard map. That can be a problem!). Better solution is to define AltGr_Lock key in the keyboard file.
For example in the mk keyboard file Left Alt + Left Shift is AltGr_Lock key. So to type in Macedonian it is enough to press Alt+Shift and after that you can type in Macedonian. Practically Alt+Shift is toggle key, that is what I wanted, a toggle key. (All this is working if KEYMAP_TOGGLE=mk is set in vconsole.conf)
But, I don't like Alt+Shift to be the toggle key (because of emacs short keys). In X I use ScrollLock, so I will use it in console too. For that I need to learn how to define custom keyboard map. My next assignment.
In this link https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php … 8#p1516318 it is mentioned that two keyboard maps can be compiled in one, I didn't explore that option, I think KEYMAP_TOGGLE=mk is better option.

Maybe stick with ubuntu.

I am learning. You have to understand that learning is a process, sometimes DIFFICULT process. You are very helpful, but sometimes, as we say, "sharp" on words (using "sharp" words) which is mild version of "impudent".
Thanks.

seth · 2024-02-01 08:41:03

/usr/share/kbd/keymaps/i386/qwerty/mk.map.gz is gz compressed plain text, you can decompress it and copy it to mk_mine and use that as augmentation and edit it in a text editor (or emacs, if you want )
You're there looking for AltGr_Lock instances.

impudent

Let's say I was slightly annoyed because you asserted the existence of something that isn't, complained about horrible documentation and then I had to link all the wikis and manpages that according to you don't exist.
Asking how to do something because you struggle to understand certain things in the wiki or manpage (you can refer) will get you a nicer tone because I'm less annoyed

barney · 2024-02-01 16:38:50

complained about horrible documentation

Maybe it is not horrible but certainly not complete and sometimes even contradictory. For Example where in the wiki for keyboard configuration is mentioned AltGr_Lock keysum and it's function. Also in man page for vconsole.conf there is no mention of it. When I have read the https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=247004 I have noticed the existence of AltGr_Lock keysum and it's function. When I decompressed the mk.map.gz and edited the file I have read the beginning of the file and after that I was able to identify the AltGr_Lock key. But, even that is not enough. After reading the man page for keymaps (not all of the page, but some of it) it was clear for modifier keys AltGr, AltGr_Lock and others. Trust me, it is not easy to find all the stuff.
There is a section about writing custom keyboard map in the wiki, but it is incomplete, you cannot write keyboard map with that information, not even to modify one. You have to read the man page for keymaps.
Also in the man page for vconsole.conf there is no explanation for the format of the FONT_MAP= value. In the keyboard map file mk.map there is charset iso-8559-5 directive, but in vconsole.conf you cannot specify iso-8859-5 for FONT_MAP. Instead, you should type 8859-5, without the iso, but that you can find in the wiki page for fonts. Real mess.

seth · 2024-02-01 16:55:57

For Example where in the wiki for keyboard configuration is mentioned AltGr_Lock keysum and it's function.

Nowhere because that's a hyperspecific detail about keybord layouts and modifiers that is documented

After reading the man page for keymaps

there, do you suggest to have the wiki replicate the manpages?

There is a section about writing custom keyboard map in the wiki, but it is incomplete, you cannot write keyboard map with that information, not even to modify one. You have to read the man page for keymaps.

Yes you can and yes you'll probably have to.

Also in the man page for vconsole.conf there is no explanation for the format of the FONT_MAP= value.

man vconsole.conf wrote:

SEE ALSO
systemd(1), systemd-vconsole-setup.service(8), loadkeys(1), setfont(8), locale.conf(5),
systemd-localed.service(8)

And there you'll find a complete explanation of console maps.

The documentation very much exists but the general topic is rather complex and in reality, you were looking for a concise article about "how can I do exactly what I want" and /that/ doesn't exist.

If you think the console multi-layout imitation is of general value in the english wiki (the russian page apparently has some details about it - just looked it up - but obviously there might be interest in other cultures) you could add a paragraph to address that.

barney · 2024-02-02 20:40:42

Nowhere because that's a hyperspecific detail about keybord layouts and modifiers that is documented

...you could add a paragraph to address that.

Maybe it is hyper specifik detail, but is also essential information for users. It is documented, but when you start reading the wiki you don't know that man page for keymaps exists. You cannot expect that users that are reading the wiki page have read the keymaps man page. Let's suppose you have Cyrillic keyboard and you don't know know about AltGr_Lock keysum. You cannot type 'loadkeys us' or 'nano vconsole.conf' essentially you are stuck.
My English is not so good to write documentation, but here is what I would add to wiki page.
Section on 'changing the keyboard layout' practically explanation on AltGr_Lock keysum. Also I will add the information about how to connect AltGr_Lock keysum with physical key on the keyboard and that is reading the beginning of the keyboard map file.
Also, after the section on writing custom keyboard map I will add the reference on keymaps man page.

Some philosophical thoughts. Let's suppose we don't have keymap for Macedonian language and somebody says Seth you have read the wiki, man pages about keyboard configuration so please write keyboard map for Macedonian language (Let's suppose that you know to speak Macedonian). Will you be able to write keyboard map file? I know that you will not be able to write the keyboard map file. You will need far more documentation to be able to write such file. I have looked at keymap file and I have found some escape sequences that (I suppose) have roots in serial terminals. I know that somewhere on the Internet that documentation exists, but it would be much easier if you have REFERENCE on it. I am wondering how was in the beginning of the Linux project, when they don't have Internet. How the hell they have write the keyboard map file for different languages. We should be thankful to that people:)

seth · 2024-02-02 22:59:10

Users don't write keybord definitions.
I'll try to add a "fake multi-layout howto" to the english wiki (in reality there's probably been no demand since the console is hardly used these days and most people interested will likely speak russian) and that will by nature include the role of the AltGr lock, but tutorials on how to write/adjust/personalize keymaps are rather out of scope.

know that you will not be able to write the keyboard map file.

I quite frankly have once written one by copying some that was close enough and editing around in that with nothing more than what was in front of me and without looking up any wiki or manpage…

I am wondering how was in the beginning of the Linux project, when they don't have Internet.

The manpages came with the disks of your distro. I remember when they first shipped in fancy html with distro-specific customized browsers.
The internet is however older than linux - it was slow and there was no google and you had to pay per minute - but you could still look up stuff and get told to rtfm in newsgroups.

barney · 2024-02-03 01:13:03

I'll try to add a "fake multi-layout howto" to the english wiki (in reality there's probably been no demand since the console is hardly used these days and most people interested will likely speak russian) and that will by nature include the role of the AltGr lock, but tutorials on how to write/adjust/personalize keymaps are rather out of scope.

All the western girls languages have same root, Latin. All the western girls alphabets are extension of the English alphabet. If that was not the case, If they were different from each other like Russian is different from English, we will have 500 different Howto's about the role of the AltGr key, 500 different howto's about the role of AltGr_Lock keysum, not to mention howto's about compose key. We will not know how many howto's we will have about how to write/adjust/personalize keymaps and not only for console, but also for X, Wayland and not yet invented technologies. All of them written in English and then translated in all the languages of the western girls. In the title section of the wiki page for keyboard configuration we will have links in the form 'Spanish users please click here, German users please click here ... all written in native language of the western girl. Probably we will have registered domain about languages of the western girls, full of references to the howto's for the specific technology.
What we have now:
Macedonia is not western girl, we don't have to write few sentences in English ....

seth · 2024-02-03 08:38:27

Latin and Cyrillic are both derivations of the Greek alphabet, the difference being that Latin has been constant since > 2000 years - meanwhile Cyrillic has seen a couple of changes in the mere ~1000 years of its existence.
puellae orientalis lābilis sunt…

Arch Linux

#1 2024-01-31 20:05:28

configuring console

#2 2024-01-31 20:35:34

Re: configuring console

#3 2024-01-31 21:02:15

Re: configuring console

#4 2024-01-31 21:15:27

Re: configuring console

#5 2024-01-31 22:04:43

Re: configuring console

#6 2024-02-01 05:41:16

Re: configuring console

#7 2024-02-01 08:41:03

Re: configuring console

#8 2024-02-01 16:38:50

Re: configuring console

#9 2024-02-01 16:55:57

Re: configuring console

#10 2024-02-02 20:40:42

Re: configuring console

#11 2024-02-02 22:59:10

Re: configuring console

#12 2024-02-03 01:13:03

Re: configuring console

#13 2024-02-03 08:38:27

Re: configuring console

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