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#1 2009-03-09 09:51:51

hussam
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Registered: 2006-03-26
Posts: 572
Website

which video card?

For AGP cards, which is better among the following two in 3d game performance, stability a durability?

1. Inno3d NVIDIA GEFORCE 7300 GT "256MB DDR3" using proprietary nvidia driver.

2. Sapphire ATI Radeon X1650 Pro "512MB DDR2" using open source driver. (Note that I haven't tried a ATI card yet, I've been using nvidia since 3dfx died in the 90's).

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#2 2009-03-11 03:35:50

ladislaio
Member
From: Greenville, Pennsylvania
Registered: 2007-09-22
Posts: 14

Re: which video card?

I run a nvidia 7300 GS, and it works fine, but from time to time it will stop working with the nvidia drivers, so I loose my openGL.

The ATI outpreforms the nvidia by quite a bit on windows, according to Tom's hardware.
url tags did not work:
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gami … .html?prod[2151]=on&prod[2108]=on&prod[2109]=on

Given a choice now, I would most likely get the ATI card, but I have not used ATI for a long time either...


mmm... Linux...

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#3 2009-03-11 04:22:12

hpestilence
Member
Registered: 2005-06-20
Posts: 67

Re: which video card?

The ATI card won't get any catalyst updates for linux past this month's release. AMD is only supporting the HD2*00 cards and newer for linux with their binary driver.

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#4 2009-03-11 04:54:27

hussam
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Registered: 2006-03-26
Posts: 572
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Re: which video card?

Can't I use the xorg driver? or do I lose functionality?

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#5 2009-03-11 10:16:47

Convergence
Member
Registered: 2005-07-02
Posts: 377

Re: which video card?

I'm pretty sure that the open source xorg driver is nowhere near as good as the closed source drivers.


It's a very deadly weapon to know what you're doing
---  William Murderface

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#6 2009-03-11 12:40:50

kensai
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From: Puerto Rico
Registered: 2005-06-03
Posts: 2,484
Website

Re: which video card?

Choose ATI and is let your frustration come. wink You will be only one more discontent ATI user, and AMD seems to care not about us.

If you want to go the secure way, choose nvidia all the time, they support legacy cards in a wonderful way.

Last edited by kensai (2009-03-11 12:43:12)


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#7 2009-03-11 12:52:45

hussam
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Registered: 2006-03-26
Posts: 572
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Re: which video card?

Inno3d's nvidia agp cards are terrible quality. that's why I was considering ATI

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#8 2009-03-11 13:19:01

Convergence
Member
Registered: 2005-07-02
Posts: 377

Re: which video card?

Then your choices are bleak my friend.  From what I understand, open source 3d drivers are not even in the same league as the closed source ones.  (and this is unlikely to change unless you get a LOT of kind folks to do a lot of VERY high level math for free.)  If you use the ati, stick to playing nethack.  (not that there is anything wrong with nethack)


It's a very deadly weapon to know what you're doing
---  William Murderface

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#9 2009-03-13 02:24:32

Ranguvar
Member
Registered: 2008-08-12
Posts: 2,544

Re: which video card?

Just to poke in here, the situation is not nearly as bleak as a few users have said... the open source AMD drivers are now recieving active support from AMD, and also there are two devs being paid to work on it at Novell. Now, it's not fantastic, and I agree on going with NVIDIA, but the radeonhd driver already has basic 3D on some models and is getting better at an appreciable rate. And the open source 2D completely beats Catalyst's (not to mention the avoidance of over nine thousand Catalyst bugs of various shapes and sizes). 3D is the only thing lacking. By 2010 or 2011 I expect AMD will be more desirable than NVIDIA, unless NVIDIA decides to start supporting the Nouvau driver.

What I really hope is that both AMD and NVIDIA will take a page from Intel's book and make open source drivers their standby. There's been some bumps in the road with recent Intel graphics, but they're obviously comitted to excellent OSS drivers, and it'll pay off. It's probably not even AMD or NVIDIA "being stupid" or "hating OSS" - because of NDA's, etc. they can't open-source their drivers, which is why AMD is slowly handing out docs and tools as they get permission to instead of open-sourcing Catalyst and letting kernel hackers try to clean it up. 'Twould be cool if NVIDIA did at least that much too, but really it's the fact that Intel never made a binary Linux driver in the first place (I think?) that means they can start off with fresh OSS.

Last edited by Ranguvar (2009-03-13 02:25:46)

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#10 2009-03-13 04:25:29

Dheart
Member
From: Sofia, Bulgaria
Registered: 2006-10-26
Posts: 956

Re: which video card?

Ranguvar, you're missing the point here:
Yes, amd opened specification and documentation... But what about it? Nvidia hasn't done that, yet they have superior 2D and 3D performance with their propietary driver so basicly noone is using the open source one. The 7300 is not a bad card at all (Given that I use 5200) so go for it - you won't regret it.


My victim you are meant to be
No, you cannot hide nor flee
You know what I'm looking for
Pleasure your torture, I will endure...

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#11 2009-03-13 11:45:24

Kilz
Member
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 140

Re: which video card?

my 2 cents

I'v used ATI forever. I dont see the problems people complain about. I love my new hd3870. I loved the x1050 in my last computer.
I wonder in the back of my head how all the nvidia users "know" from experience that ATI is bad.  Perhaps they have read it somewhere. But the problems is, if they are parroting info, and things change, they end up possibility spreading FUD.


I trust Microsoft about as far as I can comfortably spit a dead rat.
Cinnamon is a wonderful desktop
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

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#12 2009-03-13 12:06:26

Convergence
Member
Registered: 2005-07-02
Posts: 377

Re: which video card?

OK, let me clarify, I haven't used any ATI products in some time.  I bought Nvidia way back in the day because they supported linux better than ATI, and have been buying their products ever since.  I don't know how good current support is for ATI's products under linux, but from what I hear, it still isn't as good as Nvidia's  (though they are making honest efforts).  What I was saying is that Hussam mentioned using the open source drivers, and I was stating that I DO know that performance (at least 3d) will not be very good using those.  Hussam mentioned using the open source drivers because ati will no longer be supporting his particular card.  I believe that Kilz is using ati's proprietary closed sourced drivers, and seems happy with them.


It's a very deadly weapon to know what you're doing
---  William Murderface

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#13 2009-03-13 15:35:15

R00KIE
Forum Fellow
From: Between a computer and a chair
Registered: 2008-09-14
Posts: 4,734

Re: which video card?

Well one ATI X600 I have on my desktop works perfectly but it's old. I had a notebook with an nVidia card and the binary drivers were really good, most of the things I wanted (if not all) were there and the performance was good. Unfortunately this notebook had a sudden death and I bought a new one with an ATI card (HD2400) so for now the ATI binary driver works but not for long, once the new xorg-server its the extra repo it's bye bye catalyst.
The radeonhd driver which I'm using now, a version from git actually, with experimental xv support, beats the catalyst driver hands down when playing videos ..... 3D thats another matter no support now or in the near future I guess (I don't play that much so thats isn't a big problem for me) and 2D support in the radeonhd .... can't tell, at least things seem to hang less than with the catalyst driver.
If you want 3D I guess you better go with nVidia because like Ranguvar said, the catalyst driver if full of bugs, never experienced one though but make a quick search on the forum and you will see.


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#14 2009-03-14 01:44:27

Kilz
Member
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 140

Re: which video card?

I bet that the folks at AMD/ATI will be supporting xorg-server 1.6.0 sometime in April. Ubuntu will be releasing 9.04 then with 1.6.0 and from what I understand it has happened in similar fashion in the past.


I trust Microsoft about as far as I can comfortably spit a dead rat.
Cinnamon is a wonderful desktop
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

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#15 2009-03-14 14:50:34

R00KIE
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From: Between a computer and a chair
Registered: 2008-09-14
Posts: 4,734

Re: which video card?

Well yes maybe, with support for other distros broken in the 64bit camp I bet .... and sometime in April can be at the end of April, not the best timing.


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#16 2009-03-15 01:08:26

Kilz
Member
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 140

Re: which video card?

Maybe not the best timing, but those on the cutting edge sometimes run into problems like this. Sometimes it takes time for the rest to catch up. Also not everyone has testing enabled. The xorg-server and ati drivers that exist now will probably continue to work just fine for about another month (give or take a week).


I trust Microsoft about as far as I can comfortably spit a dead rat.
Cinnamon is a wonderful desktop
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

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#17 2009-03-15 01:28:01

kensai
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From: Puerto Rico
Registered: 2005-06-03
Posts: 2,484
Website

Re: which video card?

It is a fact that ATI is getting better, but well, too slowly, NVIDIA has been better long ago and now they are on a driver update spree, they seem to be fixing their drivers so fast an releasing way more often, support for newest xorg and kernel is there even before the release of the new version of those two. ATI just supports like 4 distributions and those 4 use outdated kernel and xorg, so we have to wait until they release with the newest and then we get support for the newest.

I have nvidia and ati, nvidia is far superior when it comes to linux support, and that is a fact. I am just hoping one or both ati open source drivers get decent support for newer cards and power management, but it can be a year or two before that happens. I don't have my hopes high, the 9.3 features list is so empty on hope. I hardly think that will change in the coming months. I won't give up on hope still. Let's wish for a better ati and linux future.


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#18 2009-03-15 03:17:40

Kilz
Member
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 140

Re: which video card?

kensai wrote:

It is a fact that ATI is getting better, but well, too slowly, NVIDIA has been better long ago and now they are on a driver update spree, they seem to be fixing their drivers so fast an releasing way more often, support for newest xorg and kernel is there even before the release of the new version of those two. ATI just supports like 4 distributions and those 4 use outdated kernel and xorg, so we have to wait until they release with the newest and then we get support for the newest.

I have nvidia and ati, nvidia is far superior when it comes to linux support, and that is a fact. I am just hoping one or both ati open source drivers get decent support for newer cards and power management, but it can be a year or two before that happens. I don't have my hopes high, the 9.3 features list is so empty on hope. I hardly think that will change in the coming months. I won't give up on hope still. Let's wish for a better ati and linux future.

Isnt that because of their development model? To me that looks like comparing apples and oranges. Granted its nice to point out that Arch's development model gives it advantages. But I wonder how do they compare to Arch on their release dates?


I trust Microsoft about as far as I can comfortably spit a dead rat.
Cinnamon is a wonderful desktop
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

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#19 2009-03-15 04:37:46

Ranguvar
Member
Registered: 2008-08-12
Posts: 2,544

Re: which video card?

@Dheart: I don't think I am? I agree that NVIDIA is the right choice right now. I'm just saying that AMD will be the better choice eventually, because they will have solid open source drivers. Besides the (admittedly unimportant to some) moral aspect, it means that the driver will get updated much faster to support new video technology in the kernel, like we've already seen with Intel supporting GEM and KMS, and will probably have better overall support. NVIDIA hasn't been completely free of problems, while I haven't had too much trouble, I've heard mutterings that 180.* is breaking things. I'm not spreading FUD, that is not my intention at all, but you can search the Arch forums and I'll be you'll find some stuff. OSS drivers won't make this disappear, but tighter integration with Linux and Xorg can only be a good thing.

@Kilz: So I'm guessing you don't read the Catalyst Bar thread, haven't heard about AMD dumping all old cards (NVIDIA at least updates old drivers for new kernels and new Xorg versions), Arch possibly moving the drivers to community, that it'll be a good while before AMD supports Xorg 1.6, and that Arch still has the old Catalyst for 64-bit because it's broken? tongue Seriously though, the crap quality of the Catalyst drivers is well-known. I believe it was kensai's mailing list post that really lambasted AMD big_smile

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#20 2009-03-15 07:54:15

xaiviax
Member
From: Michigan
Registered: 2008-11-04
Posts: 282

Re: which video card?

I'm just amazed that no ati drivers (now, closed source, open source, ever) support single screen multi monitor composting.

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#21 2009-03-15 11:04:36

Themaister
Member
From: Trondheim, Norway
Registered: 2008-07-21
Posts: 652
Website

Re: which video card?

Nvidia has been really nice lately with driver updates, new VDPAU which works very well, and never problems with new kernels/new xorgs. Can't see myself switching to ATi in the nearest future smile This is with the near-classic 8800GT at least tongue Haven't really had issues with the ATi card on my slightly old laptop though (just 2D tongue).

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#22 2009-03-15 11:37:07

Dinth
Member
From: London
Registered: 2009-03-02
Posts: 238

Re: which video card?

If you want some older, used gfx card, take nvidia. They got solid, very mature priopretary drivers, which are simply good.
But if you want to buy brand new gfx card, situation is more complicated. Still, Nvidia has more mature, more stable, more featured drivers, which are simply much better than any Ati driver solution atm, but on the other hand, in last months i think that Ati cards are more perspective. Nvidia looks somewhat tired and bored with making linux drivers, and opensource drivers development is very slow. Ati started thinking about linux some time ago, they are fixing bugs and add features to their proprietary drivers quickly, and also released full documentation of their drivers, so we have also two different, opensource solutions competiting with each other, and both have perspective to be full-featured drivers in near future.

Last edited by Dinth (2009-03-15 11:38:25)

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#23 2009-03-15 13:08:05

Kilz
Member
Registered: 2008-03-01
Posts: 140

Re: which video card?

Ranguvar wrote:

@Kilz: So I'm guessing you don't read the Catalyst Bar thread, haven't heard about AMD dumping all old cards (NVIDIA at least updates old drivers for new kernels and new Xorg versions), Arch possibly moving the drivers to community, that it'll be a good while before AMD supports Xorg 1.6, and that Arch still has the old Catalyst for 64-bit because it's broken? tongue Seriously though, the crap quality of the Catalyst drivers is well-known. I believe it was kensai's mailing list post that really lambasted AMD big_smile

I have read and commented in that thread, but I try not to dwell on negative things. I understand why the ATI 64bit drivers were removed. Not that I agree with the reason why they were removed (refusal to place a smylink), as it sounds like general linux insanity, kind of like Debain's. I also understand that the the 32bit one will be removed when 1.6.0 is moved from testing.
I also understand that ATI is a business, and that they are most likely motivated by sales. They are supporting the 4 major distro's.  They also to my understanding moved to a new code base for the driver last year.  This also brings up a question to me as to what driver people are comparing.
Should we expect them to support every distro? I would like to see them, but I know it may not be possible, and they are releasing a lot of specs that will help in the long run. I would rather support them in that case than a company that pumps out a lot of binary blobs.
But I do have a computer with nvidia graphics, and honestly cant tell any difference. Perhaps its what I'm running as different users have different needs.


I trust Microsoft about as far as I can comfortably spit a dead rat.
Cinnamon is a wonderful desktop
"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

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#24 2009-03-15 13:39:31

Dheart
Member
From: Sofia, Bulgaria
Registered: 2006-10-26
Posts: 956

Re: which video card?

@Dinth - How, exacly, did you find out, that nvidia are bored with the linux drivers? I mean, it's not like ati's drivers are getting better? The situation with the newer gfx cards is the same as with the older...


My victim you are meant to be
No, you cannot hide nor flee
You know what I'm looking for
Pleasure your torture, I will endure...

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#25 2009-03-15 23:53:35

graysky
Wiki Maintainer
From: :wq
Registered: 2008-12-01
Posts: 10,595
Website

Re: which video card?

I'll also echo nothing but a bad experience with ATI cards.  As long as you're running a modern nvidia card, driver support is pretty good these days.  Since you're AGP, I think that might rule out VDPAU support but I don't know the hardware line very well.  If you can get a hold of an 8400GS 512 meg card in an AGP interface I would do it.  I have the same card in a PCI and PCI-E and they are both excellent workstation cards.


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