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#1 2005-01-27 18:11:00

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
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Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

I have notice quite a bit of nastiness on the forums lately. It is starting to remind me of other distributions that have earned themselves less than great reputations for how they treat new people, each other, etc.

Any ideas on how to reduce the flaming? Is it a good idea to reduce it? Am I being silly?


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#2 2005-01-27 18:11:44

miqorz
Member
Registered: 2004-12-31
Posts: 475

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

Step one :

Reduce idiotic posts.

Step two:

Enjoy


http://wiki2.archlinux.org/

Read it. Love it. Live it. Or die.

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#3 2005-01-27 18:13:43

xerxes2
Member
From: Malmoe, Sweden
Registered: 2004-04-23
Posts: 1,249
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

I agree with you cactus,
even if some guy post that arch sucks ass and such, it doesn't mean that you have to sink to that level yourself,

that's what the trolls wan't,


arch + gentoo + initng + python = enlisy

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#4 2005-01-27 18:27:18

rasat
Forum Fellow
From: Finland, working in Romania
Registered: 2002-12-27
Posts: 2,176
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

xerxes2 wrote:

even if some guy post that arch sucks ass and such, it doesn't mean that you have to sink to that level yourself,

The problem on a forum with many users, it spreads. After awhile active users/oldtimers take it as a "style of talking" but new users get offended. This is one of the reasons why distro forums got bad reputation.

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#5 2005-01-27 18:35:09

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

miqorz wrote:

Step one :

Reduce idiotic posts.

Step two:

Enjoy

not true, you were guilty of this exact thing in a post i just read... the Apple one...

therefore, idiotic posts or not, it still happens

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#6 2005-01-27 18:38:57

sarah31
Member
From: Middle of Canada
Registered: 2002-08-20
Posts: 2,975
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

Another common thing other forums will do is lock threads that serve to be flame bait. You can get alot of kickback from this but people will get the idea that even though there is an Off Topic section that does not mean flame on.

Rasat you are correct in your analysis to. This forum has been under moderated and some of the stuff the long time user get away with is not right. Mind you there are always impetuous yonng rookies that always feel it is fun to openly challenge others that have been around longer. People like Jason who never got into flaming was turned off this forum alot because people responded to both his help and comments negatively.

Then there are people like me that will take on any challenger .. until I get bored. I have always had a large target on my back for whatever reason and I have gotten used to it. Thats why I can say I care little what I say whether it hurts or not. In the end I know whether I am naughty or nice people always will think negatively of me. It doesn't stop me from help most people out.


AKA uknowme

I am not your friend

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#7 2005-01-27 18:39:01

miqorz
Member
Registered: 2004-12-31
Posts: 475

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

Sarcasm doesn't travel well over the internet does it?


http://wiki2.archlinux.org/

Read it. Love it. Live it. Or die.

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#8 2005-01-27 18:45:43

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

sarah31 wrote:

Then there are people like me that will take on any challenger .. until I get bored. I have always had a large target on my back for whatever reason and I have gotten used to it. Thats why I can say I care little what I say whether it hurts or not. In the end I know whether I am naughty or nice people always will think negatively of me. It doesn't stop me from help most people out.

Yeah, you tend to come off as very aggressive... I'm not really sure what it is... do you type really hard? heh... most of us are used to it...

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#9 2005-01-27 21:38:34

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

When humans are fed up or in any other emotional way slightly unstable, they tend to do stupid things. That's when moderators should jump in and avoid escalation by shutting down a thread or deleting such post.

Not only sarcasm and irony don't come well across the internet, most other emotions don't either. Perhaps only a few when the post is sprankled by smilies...

As far as I can tell there are zero forum moderators active on this forum, and those posting don't seem to reduce the nastiness.

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#10 2005-01-27 21:59:06

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

To give a bad recent example:

miqorz wrote:

Where's the "because I like it" option? Dumbass..

Never say something personal like "dumbass" to someone you don't know (which is almost always the case on internet). Keep things general and don't call names, that's a good start.

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#11 2005-01-27 22:10:20

Tigger
Member
Registered: 2005-01-25
Posts: 48
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

We have a "NO RTFM" policy over at the Vector Linux forum and the board motto is "Be Nice"

Telling someone to RTFM is absolutely pointless - if they knew where the info was, they wouldn't be posting a question about it - doesn't that make sense?

You can't expect someone new to spend 3 weeks going through old posts either.  Maybe a quick search but a lot of the forum search tools really suck so this isn't a must either.

Bottom line is this - other than trolls - folks are here for a reason - whether that is to help with knowledge, to give something back in the way of packages or apps, to offer their opinion on what they feel would make it better, or to just ask for help as they have no idea where to start or how to correct their issue.  Everything should be welcomed.  If some of the old-timers are getting sick of answering the same thing over and over, then let some of the newer folks chime in - their ability to help out will help improve and solidify their knowledge and they will feel better about giving something back.

The VL forum is not perfect by a long shot but it does try to promote a very friendly, easy-going and respectful place for folks to get help.  After all, these are HELP forums.

It can all be summed up in 2 words:


"BE NICE"

smile

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#12 2005-01-27 22:25:06

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

I think "he said, she said" is somewhat counterproductive at this point.

*ahem*

My purpose was to merely highlight an issue that I believe has become more prevalent as of late, for whatever reason. I realize that as a community grows, it is unavoidable that different voices matriculate into the fold. It is important, however, to maintain a certain level of standards.

This is not about cencorship, this is about civility. This is about mutual respect. I was awestruck when I first came on the forums: I was amazed at how helpful and friendly people were here. How courteous and genuine the userbase was. Of late, I have started to get the feeling that some new people are having an initial impression that is decidedly dissimilar to what mine was. I find that sad.

I think it is important to keep the community healthy. Nip it in the bud so to speak.

I do think that some additional forum moderation would be very effective in this regard. Careful moderation is required though. Like I said, this is not about cencorship, this is about maintaining an air of respect and helpfulness. I believe it is unavoidable to have disputes about certain things, especially considering how vehemently some people hold their ideals about software and personal computer use. I still believe that an attempt should be made to uphold some ideal of docorum.

Brand me utopian if you wish, but I would at least strive towards attaining results, than simply accept defeat. I realize that I am but one voice, with one viewpoint. Perhaps I alone am percieving such a change in forum disposition...

EDIT: Tigger is quicker on the type than I am apparently.  wink


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#13 2005-01-27 23:20:45

dp
Member
From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,363
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

PEACE!


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#14 2005-01-27 23:38:10

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

Tigger wrote:

Telling someone to RTFM is absolutely pointless - if they knew where the info was, they wouldn't be posting a question about it - doesn't that make sense?

OT, but that statement isn't true - like any trained animal, a human will take the easiest route towards a benefit.  If a person get's fast, precise help on the forums a few times, they won't even bother searching anymore and just go straight to "someone helpx0rz me shite is borked"... that's when i get angry...

I remember a big set of flames where the posting went like this:

guy: I need help with Z
me: *posts link to wiki*
guy: still having problems with Z
me: *reposts link to wiki*
guy: I don't like your attitude, blah blah blah
me: *posts contents of aforementioned link*
guy: hey thanks, that worked

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#15 2005-01-28 00:16:42

Tigger
Member
Registered: 2005-01-25
Posts: 48
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

If you want to help, you do, if you don't, you don't.  There are usually plenty of folks willing to answer the simple stuff anyway.  For some it helps them get a better grasp of the concept.

As a rule on the VL forum, I sit back and let the other users answer the posts.  I only jump in when something incorrect has been told to someone or when nobody else can help.

I've taken great joy in watching some of the folks that asked very basic questions turn into some of the more knowledgable users in the community.

Don't forget - we must learn everything in life.  The only things that we were born with are the ability to suck and cry.  Everything else is learned.

I don't get upset with stupid questions because I don't believe there are any stupid questions but  do get upset with impatient knowledgable folks that "talk" down to folks with less knowledge.  It doesn't prove their "superiority", it does the exact opposite.

Thats my take on Help Forums and the people that use them.

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#16 2005-01-28 01:13:44

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

Tigger wrote:

We'll have to agree to disagree.

If you want to help, you do, if you don't, you don't.  There are usually plenty of folks willing to answer the simple stuff anyway.  For some it helps them get a better grasp of the concept.

As a rule on the VL forum, I sit back and let the other users answer the posts.  I only jump in when something incorrect has been told to someone or when nobody else can help.

I've taken great joy in watching some of the folks that asked very basic questions turn into some of the more knowledgable users in the community.

Don't forget - we must learn everything in life.  The only things that we were born with are the ability to suck and cry.  Everything else is learned.

I don't get upset with stupid questions because I don't believe there are any stupid questions but  do get upset with impatient knowledgable folks that "talk" down to folks with less knowledge.  It doesn't prove their "superiority", it does the exact opposite.

Thats my take on Help Forums and the people that use them.

well, I have to say that I *attempt* to help everyone i'm capable of helping... it's not the questions that are stupid, but the fact that, at one time I recall seeing the top three posts of one of these forums as some variation on "can't get alsa working in new kernel 2.6.X" - the answer to all of them was the exact same... and it was in the wiki, the arch newsletter, and about 10 other posts.... it's when people don't even bother to make an attempt that I get irritated.

the greatest skill one can ever learn is how to help oneself...

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#17 2005-01-28 03:06:59

Tigger
Member
Registered: 2005-01-25
Posts: 48
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

Common sense isn't so common.

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#18 2005-01-28 03:37:00

rasat
Forum Fellow
From: Finland, working in Romania
Registered: 2002-12-27
Posts: 2,176
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

i3839 wrote:

As far as I can tell there are zero forum moderators active on this forum, and those posting don't seem to reduce the nastiness.

8-9 months ago when I started moderating the forums it was manageable by daily going through all postings. Since last few months no longer possible.... too many posts (70-90/day) and its increasing.... resently we exceeded the default mysql setting.
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=9423

Both moderators and developers moderates the forums. For them to go through all the posts will not work. But if we divide the forums among them; each one has a particular forum. I will check with them.

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#19 2005-01-28 04:01:12

cactus
Taco Eater
From: t͈̫̹ͨa͖͕͎̱͈ͨ͆ć̥̖̝o̫̫̼s͈̭̱̞͍̃!̰
Registered: 2004-05-25
Posts: 4,615
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

you might consider picking up a mod or two then.


"Be conservative in what you send; be liberal in what you accept." -- Postel's Law
"tacos" -- Cactus' Law
"t̥͍͎̪̪͗a̴̻̩͈͚ͨc̠o̩̙͈ͫͅs͙͎̙͊ ͔͇̫̜t͎̳̀a̜̞̗ͩc̗͍͚o̲̯̿s̖̣̤̙͌ ̖̜̈ț̰̫͓ạ̪͖̳c̲͎͕̰̯̃̈o͉ͅs̪ͪ ̜̻̖̜͕" -- -̖͚̫̙̓-̺̠͇ͤ̃ ̜̪̜ͯZ͔̗̭̞ͪA̝͈̙͖̩L͉̠̺͓G̙̞̦͖O̳̗͍

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#20 2005-01-28 11:29:42

dtw
Forum Fellow
From: UK
Registered: 2004-08-03
Posts: 4,432
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

i have only one thing to say, which tigger will understand, and then i'll shut up:

galen

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#21 2005-01-28 14:19:52

Tigger
Member
Registered: 2005-01-25
Posts: 48
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

roll

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#22 2005-01-28 14:49:05

dp
Member
From: Zürich, Switzerland
Registered: 2003-05-27
Posts: 3,363
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

more people, more laws, more police, more trouble

i'm not sure who said it (Plato? Sokrates?) but there is a saying:
"The best way to run a civilisation is to teach the people live civilised. Where there are laws, there are bad people and where there are bad people, there is bad atmosphäre and trouble." (german to english translation out of my remembering how this saying goes ... i hope you get the message)


The impossible missions are the only ones which succeed.

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#23 2005-01-28 15:03:20

phrakture
Arch Overlord
From: behind you
Registered: 2003-10-29
Posts: 7,879
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

dp wrote:

more people, more laws, more police, more trouble

i'm not sure who said it (Plato? Sokrates?) but there is a saying:
"The best way to run a civilisation is to teach the people live civilised. Where there are laws, there are bad people and where there are bad people, there is bad atmosphäre and trouble." (german to english translation out of my remembering how this saying goes ... i hope you get the message)

I like the saying (paraphrased) that: the best government keeps people in such a state of fear of punishment for wrong doing, that people are generally civil....

Here in america you get people that don't have a home/food and will love to go to jail so they are fed and have shelter.... sad

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#24 2005-01-28 15:05:47

Tigger
Member
Registered: 2005-01-25
Posts: 48
Website

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

phrakture wrote:

Here in america you get people that don't have a home/food and will love to go to jail so they are fed and have shelter.... sad

Here in Canada too - very sad.

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#25 2005-01-28 19:37:05

i3839
Member
Registered: 2004-02-04
Posts: 1,185

Re: Forum etiquette, or how to be civil.

rasat wrote:

Both moderators and developers moderates the forums. For them to go through all the posts will not work. But if we divide the forums among them; each one has a particular forum. I will check with them.

It could be less official, as that they don't have to check any posts they normally wouldn't read, but that if they encounter bad ones they know what to do. Sort of simple guidelines or something, so that it doesn't depend too much on the moderator what happens with the post. Better to have more moderators that do the moderating more or less along the way, than to have a few which have the feeling that they have a sort of job to do.

Perhaps a seperate flame forum could be made where all the offensive stuff can be moved to, then people can flame what they want without bothering anyone. Often a thread just degrades too much, then it's time to lock it (or moving it to the flameforum). Only personally insulting or other obviously improper posts should be deleted.

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